GSP take down and grappling techniques?

[Gandhi]

Yeah, I actually get extremely annoyed when bjj people say " oh you don't need to learn Wrestling from wrestlers.. look at GSP and Maia.." which completely ignores the fact they put on Wrestling shoes and actually trained WITH wrestlers lol.

So it really becomes funny when people talk or ask about something like folkstyle mat wrestling. You give them videos that explain the fundamental concepts underneath the technique.. and you get "brah, dis is mma.. i don't need to learn from wrestlers" then wonder why they don't get better

GSP learned wrestling from wrestlers. Everything he learned pre Matt Hughs 2 (the first time he beat him) was boxing with boxers, wrestling with wrestlers, BJJ at BTT Canada, Victor Vargotsky for kickboxing from Tri Star, with MMA work with Firas Zihabi who out the time was an up and comer trainer but not yet the master he is today. Mike Vanarsedale has a god expression, which was "do the sport"!!!!

Of course that is not always easy for us mere mortals, so you have to make due with what you have. But at the least a good MMA school will have a wrestler come in for wrestling class, etc.

 

[jack36767]

GSP learned wrestling from wrestlers. Everything he learned pre Matt Hughs 2 (the first time he beat him) was boxing with boxers, wrestling with wrestlers, BJJ at BTT Canada, Victor Vargotsky for kickboxing from Tri Star, with MMA work with Firas Zihabi who out the time was an up and comer trainer but not yet the master he is today. Mike Vanarsedale has a god expression, which was "do the sport"!!!!

Of course that is not always easy for us mere mortals, so you have to make due with what you have. But at the least a good MMA school will have a wrestler come in for wrestling class, etc.

Oh for sure, and if you don't have access that's one thing. But I've seen that attitude so much it's mind boggling

 

[Foxflechette57]

Yeah, I actually get extremely annoyed when bjj people say " oh you don't need to learn Wrestling from wrestlers.. look at GSP and Maia.." which completely ignores the fact they put on Wrestling shoes and actually trained WITH wrestlers lol.

So it really becomes funny when people talk or ask about something like folkstyle mat wrestling. You give them videos that explain the fundamental concepts underneath the technique.. and you get "brah, dis is mma.. i don't need to learn from wrestlers" then wonder why they don't get better

I really enjoy reading the grappling treads in Sherdog when I got some time, and you are obviously one of the most active poster.
So just a quick side note, I have a bunch of respect for your wresstling knowledge. But why do you always have to add these litlle attacks ag Bjj guys, its a bit weird and it most often don't add anything to the topic..
By the way from where I am, people who trains Bjj most often show interest for wrestling, and some actually show up to some wrestling classes.
Grappling is a small world, we should show respect to each other.

 

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

I really enjoy reading the grappling treads in Sherdog when I got some time, and you are obviously one of the most active poster.
So just a quick side note, I have a bunch of respect for your wresstling knowledge. But why do you always have to add these litlle attacks ag Bjj guys, its a bit weird and it most often don't add anything to the topic..
By the way from where I am, people who trains Bjj most often show interest for wrestling, and some actually show up to some wrestling classes.
Grappling is a small world, we should show respect to each other.

Thanks dude.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

This thread makes me wanna wrestle.

 

[jack36767]

I really enjoy reading the grappling treads in Sherdog when I got some time, and you are obviously one of the most active poster.
So just a quick side note, I have a bunch of respect for your wresstling knowledge. But why do you always have to add these litlle attacks ag Bjj guys, its a bit weird and it most often don't add anything to the topic..
By the way from where I am, people who trains Bjj most often show interest for wrestling, and some actually show up to some wrestling classes.
Grappling is a small world, we should show respect to each other.

It's more of frustration.. because it's often the exact equivalent of a white belt telling a black belt during class how to do certain techniques or what will and won't work.

I usually try to put that I know it's not all bjj people just some, but when I see that asinine concept of "I don't need to listen to the wrestlers about wrestling, it's mma. Or look at GSP/Maia" it's gets tiresome. And I've encountered it enough that I see a trend. I know it's not everyone

Especially because while I did mix up this thread with his questions about folk meta thread. i was actually trying to point him in the direction of well coached technique videos that break down the core concepts such as hip pressure and hip control.. that make what Askren, Cain etc doing possible so it led to
1. He first completely misunderstands which is fine
2. When I explain that I have the credentials to know what I'm talking about he tries to say suddenly it's mma so I don't.. which is a little like telling a coach at a bjj school who's teaching Maia's passing series his instruction is invalid because it's not taught in mma class
3. And the constant claiming I was saying that Khabib was a folkstyle wrestler because he didn't actually read got tiresome as well

I should have realized trying to help this particular individual probably was futile when he reacted the way he did to Uchi joking about not telling him what to do. Oh well

My frustration comes from actually trying to help and then getting told how what I do for a living works by people who don't know whaf they're doing. I'm probably just going to create my own thread trying to show techniques/concepts that make what Askren is doing possible

 

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

It's more of frustration.. because it's often the exact equivalent of a white belt telling a black belt during class how to do certain techniques or what will and won't work.

I usually try to put that I know it's not all bjj people just some, but when I see that asinine concept of "I don't need to listen to the wrestlers about wrestling, it's mma. Or look at GSP/Maia" it's gets tiresome. And I've encountered it enough that I see a trend. I know it's not everyone

Especially because while I did mix up this thread with his questions about folk meta thread. i was actually trying to point him in the direction of well coached technique videos that break down the core concepts such as hip pressure and hip control.. that make what Askren, Cain etc doing possible so it led to
1. He first completely misunderstands which is fine
2. When I explain that I have the credentials to know what I'm talking about he tries to say suddenly it's mma so I don't.. which is a little like telling a coach at a bjj school who's teaching Maia's passing series his instruction is invalid because it's not taught in mma class
3. And the constant claiming I was saying that Khabib was a folkstyle wrestler because he didn't actually read got tiresome as well

I should have realized trying to help this particular individual probably was futile when he reacted the way he did to Uchi joking about not telling him what to do. Oh well

My frustration comes from actually trying to help and then getting told how what I do for a living works by people who don't know whaf they're doing. I'm probably just going to create my own thread trying to show techniques/concepts that make what Askren is doing possible

I think this dude has the hots for me he writes tons of paragraphs and gets extremely heart broken I'm going to start a patreon donation for jack it's not him himself he has great views on things and teaches stuff but it is the way he goes about doing it I think he could suck his own dick if he could please donate to jack he's going through a stalker obsession.

 

[Foxflechette57]

It's more of frustration.. because it's often the exact equivalent of a white belt telling a black belt during class how to do certain techniques or what will and won't work.

I usually try to put that I know it's not all bjj people just some, but when I see that asinine concept of "I don't need to listen to the wrestlers about wrestling, it's mma. Or look at GSP/Maia" it's gets tiresome. And I've encountered it enough that I see a trend. I know it's not everyone

Especially because while I did mix up this thread with his questions about folk meta thread. i was actually trying to point him in the direction of well coached technique videos that break down the core concepts such as hip pressure and hip control.. that make what Askren, Cain etc doing possible so it led to
1. He first completely misunderstands which is fine
2. When I explain that I have the credentials to know what I'm talking about he tries to say suddenly it's mma so I don't.. which is a little like telling a coach at a bjj school who's teaching Maia's passing series his instruction is invalid because it's not taught in mma class
3. And the constant claiming I was saying that Khabib was a folkstyle wrestler because he didn't actually read got tiresome as well

I should have realized trying to help this particular individual probably was futile when he reacted the way he did to Uchi joking about not telling him what to do. Oh well

My frustration comes from actually trying to help and then getting told how what I do for a living works by people who don't know whaf they're doing. I'm probably just going to create my own thread trying to show techniques/concepts that make what Askren is doing possible

Fair enough, From what I read you are sharing a lot of knnowledge and its much appreciated.

I have competed a lot in judo in my youth, but its thanks to MMA and then BJJ that I have been introduced to wrestling (an humbling introduction actually), its an amazing sport, and bjj guys who think wrestling is useless or not technical have missed the point, and yep I can understand you frustration as a wrestling coach who has competed at high level

 

[jack36767]

Fair enough, From what I read you are sharing a lot of knnowledge and its much appreciated.

I have competed a lot in judo in my youth, but its thanks to MMA and then BJJ that I have been introduced to wrestling (an humbling introduction actually), its an amazing sport, and bjj guys who think wrestling is useless or not technical have missed the point, and yep I can understand you frustration as a wrestling coach who has competed at high level

His reply above sums up why I got annoyed lol. It always reflects on someone's intelligence that they can't read beyond a few lines without losing track

Sorry for the miscommunication and glad you understand

 

[Uchi Mata]

GSP learned wrestling from wrestlers. Everything he learned pre Matt Hughs 2 (the first time he beat him) was boxing with boxers, wrestling with wrestlers, BJJ at BTT Canada, Victor Vargotsky for kickboxing from Tri Star, with MMA work with Firas Zihabi who out the time was an up and comer trainer but not yet the master he is today. Mike Vanarsedale has a god expression, which was "do the sport"!!!!

Of course that is not always easy for us mere mortals, so you have to make due with what you have. But at the least a good MMA school will have a wrestler come in for wrestling class, etc.

I think the best MMA schools are getting to the point where they're big enough and have enough specialists, both trainers and fighters, in house that you can get pretty good at any of the component disciplines there. These days I think it's only when you get to the highest levels that you need to do a lot of training with specialists, and then it's mostly just to find people better than you who can push you rather than picking up a bunch of additional technical knowledge. I'm sure Demian Maia learns something everytime he trains wrestling in the US, but my guess is most of the reason he comes up is to that he's by far the best wrestler in his gym and the only people who will push him and show him the holes in his game are decorated wrestlers. I'd be shocked if he's spending any time working on gut wrenches or par terre because the point isn't primarily to learn the sport, it's to find badasses that will push him. I do think there's value if you have the time in learning the sport just because you might pick up a few things you wouldn't immediately think would be MMA applicable but are, but for the most part I'd guess it's about being on mats where you're not the best guy.

 

[Uchi Mata]

This thread makes me wanna wrestle.

That's funny, it makes me want to start teaching classes on proper punctuation in written English.

 

[Luke Rockholds (?) kick]

That's funny, it makes me want to start teaching classes on proper punctuation in written English.

Lol you're going to die one day like me anyways so I'm not going to waste my life on you waste of spaces typical social media douchebags can't even be polite as for jack I don't no why jacks so mad I think his pussy needs some stimulating as for uchi just a sad fat man in freezing Denver Colorado with no value whatsoever but hate on people and jack I do actually want to learn wrestling believe it or not I wasn't posting this to be a dick and say oh Bjj is better than wrestling oh you don't know anything about wrestling like you said to me I watched your videos great stuff. But it is quite insulting considering I do train MMA and know wrestling but hey if you want to insult go ahead I really ain't got time to waste my life on fucking MMA I have many other interests, but do what you want I hate writing long ass paragraphs like this but I need to get my point across.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Lol you're going to die one day like me anyways so I'm not going to waste my life on you waste of spaces typical social media douchebags can't even be polite as for jack I don't no why jacks so mad I think his pussy needs some stimulating as for uchi just a sad fat man in freezing Denver Colorado with no value whatsoever but hate on people and jack I do actually want to learn wrestling believe it or not I wasn't posting this to be a dick and say oh Bjj is better than wrestling oh you don't know anything about wrestling like you said to me I watched your videos great stuff. But it is quite insulting considering I do train MMA and know wrestling but hey if you want to insult go ahead I really ain't got time to waste my life on fucking MMA I have many other interests, but do what you want I hate writing long ass paragraphs like this but I need to get my point across.

What a moron. Not only are you functionally illiterate, you have no idea how to actually learn anything from a forum. I'll give you a clue before I block you and no longer even have to glance at the ass piss of word salad that you try to pass off as writing: when you get on a new forum, you should read some posts to figure out who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. And when you make a whole bunch of posts in a row, and people respond with their perspectives (people who in all likelihood know a great deal more about various aspects of grappling and fighting than you do), you might try thinking about what they're saying rather than just arguing incoherently with them. Jack, for example, was a D1 wrestler, so there's a good chance he knows a lot more about wrestling than you. I myself have been in Judo and BJJ since 2000, won national titles in Judo, and grappled professionally, so chances are I know more about grappling than you do. There are multiple black belts and professional grapplers and fighters who post on here, and no one has time for antagonizing pissants.

If rather than edification your goal is to feel as if you know more than any of us by arguing idiotic points of view until we give up talking to you, then I suppose you've succeeded. Congratulations dumbass.

 

[jack36767]

Lol you're going to die one day like me anyways so I'm not going to waste my life on you waste of spaces typical social media douchebags can't even be polite as for jack I don't no why jacks so mad I think his pussy needs some stimulating as for uchi just a sad fat man in freezing Denver Colorado with no value whatsoever but hate on people and jack I do actually want to learn wrestling believe it or not I wasn't posting this to be a dick and say oh Bjj is better than wrestling oh you don't know anything about wrestling like you said to me I watched your videos great stuff. But it is quite insulting considering I do train MMA and know wrestling but hey if you want to insult go ahead I really ain't got time to waste my life on fucking MMA I have many other interests, but do what you want I hate writing long ass paragraphs like this but I need to get my point across.

Lol tell me.. how much do you "know" wrestling lol

 

[Gandhi]

I think the best MMA schools are getting to the point where they're big enough and have enough specialists, both trainers and fighters, in house that you can get pretty good at any of the component disciplines there. These days I think it's only when you get to the highest levels that you need to do a lot of training with specialists, and then it's mostly just to find people better than you who can push you rather than picking up a bunch of additional technical knowledge. I'm sure Demian Maia learns something everytime he trains wrestling in the US, but my guess is most of the reason he comes up is to that he's by far the best wrestler in his gym and the only people who will push him and show him the holes in his game are decorated wrestlers. I'd be shocked if he's spending any time working on gut wrenches or par terre because the point isn't primarily to learn the sport, it's to find badasses that will push him. I do think there's value if you have the time in learning the sport just because you might pick up a few things you wouldn't immediately think would be MMA applicable but are, but for the most part I'd guess it's about being on mats where you're not the best guy.

Sure and it was def more an issue when guys like GSP where starting out. But if you are training with guys that did a lot of wrestling or at gyms that bring them in house it will def be very effective. And even back then for GSP, his ability to wrestle heavyweights (out wrestle actually lol) from the Canadian olympic team was one of the most valuable aspects of what he was doing. When I started I was a much bigger believer in doing the actual sport and have seen now that MMA is more mature its not always the case. I still wish I wrestled in high school

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sure and it was def more an issue when guys like GSP where starting out. But if you are training with guys that did a lot of wrestling or at gyms that bring them in house it will def be very effective. And even back then for GSP, his ability to wrestle heavyweights (out wrestle actually lol) from the Canadian olympic team was one of the most valuable aspects of what he was doing. When I started I was a much bigger believer in doing the actual sport and have seen now that MMA is more mature its not always the case. I still wish I wrestled in high school

Yeah, me too. And having deep expertise in a sport will never hurt you, it's just a cost/benefit calculus with your time. A BJJ black belt is going to have a deeper bag of tricks than someone who learns all their grappling at an MMA gym, it's just that many of those tricks won't be useful and in a real sense that black belt would have probably been better off spending some of that mat time learning to strike. It's ultimately a hard question to answer because it does help at the highest levels to have a deep specialty and the only way you get that is by spending an outsize proportion of your time in a particular art, but you are robbing yourself of time and energy you could spend on a more general skill set. As we get more and more MMA natives at the highest levels it will be very interesting to see if they start beating high level specialists on the regular or not. So far it hasn't happened.

 

[ArtemV]

Lol tell me.. how much do you "know" wrestling lol

'Hey, I know how to single leg, double leg and how to sprawl! I am sure that's all I need to know...'

Probably to that extent ahah, wrestling is so fun when you get to know it.

 

[jack36767]

'Hey, I know how to single leg, 26 leg and how to sprawl! I am sure that's all I need to know...'

Probably to that extent ahah, wrestling is so fun when you get to know it.

My favorite is "I know how to sprawl.. you just kick your legs back and up"

 

[Quebec Nick]

Sure and it was def more an issue when guys like GSP where starting out. But if you are training with guys that did a lot of wrestling or at gyms that bring them in house it will def be very effective. And even back then for GSP, his ability to wrestle heavyweights (out wrestle actually lol) from the Canadian olympic team was one of the most valuable aspects of what he was doing. When I started I was a much bigger believer in doing the actual sport and have seen now that MMA is more mature its not always the case. I still wish I wrestled in high school

From what I've heard from people who trained wrestling with him, he really worked is ass off to get to that level, he was willing to get beat up and dominated by olympic wrestlers.

He was also willing to go to New York to learn BJJ, he was willing to be the ''slow guy'' at Freddy Roach's gym, he's always bringing in better strikers than him to train.

It's not everybody who are willing to go that way to be the best like he is. You need to have a very big thirst for learning and you need to be a hard worker.

If I look at myself, my biggest weakness is wrestling/judo, and I'm not sure if I would be willing to get my ass kick to learn it.

 

[Gandhi]

From what I've heard from people who trained wrestling with him, he really worked is ass off to get to that level, he was willing to get beat up and dominated by olympic wrestlers.

He was also willing to go to New York to learn BJJ, he was willing to be the ''slow guy'' at Freddy Roach's gym, he's always bringing in better strikers than him to train.

It's not everybody who are willing to go that way to be the best like he is. You need to have a very big thirst for learning and you need to be a hard worker.

If I look at myself, my biggest weakness is wrestling/judo, and I'm not sure if I would be willing to get my ass kick to learn it.

Yeah thats pretty much it except he was pretty soon taking those olympic level wrestlers down (even the HWs). He would go to Ennzo's against the best black belts in Gi, etc. etc. I am with you on the W/J, my weakest link and while I am willing to learn, I am not sure my body would like it. I am going to stick with getting my BJJ top notch to be on par with my striking, then see where it goes. I should be well rounded by the time im 60.