Great KARATE kyokushinkai

[AshiharaFan]

That's a really meaningless semantic argument that ignores the point of the conversation. It's not about someone being 100% pure, it's about them being a strong representative of that style.

That is your opinion which you are entitled to. I don't think I've heard the term "purist" for mma fighters since the very early days of the UFC when contestants were most certainly "purists" and, to a large extant, the early days of PRIDE FC. This has been my stance from the time I replied to Shin that I do not know of any pure MT fighters in the UFC and it is my assumption that this is what he meant by "pure". I could be wrong about that but it's up to Shin to clarify if I am or not.

 

[a guy]

That is your opinion which you are entitled to. I don't think I've heard the term "purist" for mma fighters since the very early days of the UFC when contestants were most certainly "purists" and, to a large extant, the early days of PRIDE FC. This has been my stance from the time I replied to Shin that I do not know of any pure MT fighters in the UFC and it is my assumption that this is what he meant by "pure". I could be wrong about that but it's up to Shin to clarify if I am or not.

Look at the context: he's talking about karate fighters in MMA and using the term relatively, NOT absolutely.

 

[shinkyoku]

Look at the context: he's talking about karate fighters in MMA and using the term relatively, NOT absolutely.

Pretty much. Machida is not "pure" karate. (or pure shotokan karate. Karate=/=Karate) but he is close, as close as you can get. And he certainly is the one who is held up as "the" sole karate fighter successfull in mma, by those who has not checked out how many successfull guys have karate in their toolbox.

That is pretty much the point I was trying to make about karate hate in mma. Karate fighters need to show a long karate career with no other cross training. Basically there are guys out there who insist on being karate based, and the mma fans refuse to believe what -on the basis that they are successfull which proves thay cannot be karate based. A thaiboxer can train whatever he wants, and he will still be labeled a thaiboxer.

The speaker at a ufc fight will always call a knee or elbow strike "thaiboxing techniques" -never mind if the user lerned them in karate. "Karate" techniques" are apparently limited to spectacular jumping spinning kicks.

 

[ARIZE]

No. Those belongs to TKD... Karate doesn't exist. It was a myth.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Machida is not "pure" karate. (or pure shotokan karate. Karate=/=Karate) but he is close, as close as you can get.

Thanks for the clarification. While it's true that Machida-San isn't "pure" Karate in mma I definitely agree that he is as close as you can get and probably the best representative of Karate in mma right now. I have a habit of referring to certain people as "specialists" (instead of purists) when it comes to mma and I know that I am not alone in doing that. So I still divide fighters as grapplers, strikers or well rounded but when it comes to grapplers and strikers I always speak in terms of one's "specialty" or "base" (BJJ, muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, etc.).

That is pretty much the point I was trying to make about karate hate in mma. Karate fighters need to show a long karate career with no other cross training. Basically there are guys out there who insist on being karate based, and the mma fans refuse to believe what -on the basis that they are successfull which proves thay cannot be karate based. A thaiboxer can train whatever he wants, and he will still be labeled a thaiboxer.

THIS! It may have something to do with it being their base. Donald Cerrone is still labeled as a Thai boxer even though he has a pretty decent grappling game. As a matter of fact, Michelle Waterson is nicknamed "karotty hottie" and is thought to be a stand up specialist and a Karate fighter. Here are two interesting things about that.

As far as her being a stand up specialist goes she has 12 finishes in her 14 wins. All but three of those finishes were by submission. Like Cerrone, she is an underrated grappler who is still looked at as a stand up specialist because of her base and her nickname.

And as far as her base is concerned, she said herself that she is not a Karate fighter. She now favors muay Thai over Karate. She went to Thailand to train and I believe she also competed a little bit while there. So my guess is that she now considers herself a kick boxer or Thai boxer instead of a Karate fighter but she will more than likely always be labeled as a Karate fighter since it was her initial stand up art and she has that cute little nickname. Lastly, she did say that she still has a couple of favorite kicks from her Karate background that she likes to use when she fights.

 

[tekkennlee]

I am a Shotokan practitioner but I echo what you said - Kyokushin is good, all respect to those guys.

BTW came to my mind recently how most ppl shit on Karate in the MMA sub-forums but nobody in their right mind would shit on Karate (esp. Kyokushin) in the K-1 sub-forums. Karate is legit standup and kickboxing fans know it.

i agree

 

[tekkennlee]

i agree

I have been doing arts fore years i got jumped bvuy 11 guys i in a playground
i got beat up my dad tought me Gung Fu White Crane and boxing , he told me go to the park defend yourself . I beat all of them all easy now I want to learn , all styles all arts. Next is Karate it works if use in the proper way .

 

[rmongler]

When you specialize in something in mma, 8 times out of 10, You will be fighting a guy who's gameplan revolves around not engaging you in that area, in avoiding or obviating that area. Not enough people really appreciate what an effect this has on the metagame of useful tactics, training, and procedures.

Take a guy like Danial Cormier for instance; in his career as an olympic wrestler, his game basically revolved around getting the tie-ups he liked, baiting his opponent into taking a shot, and then reversing them with a go behind.

Obviously, pretty much no-one has ever obliged him in such a way inside the cage.

Its not something that's ever really touched on, but he had to pretty much completely retool the way he wrestled all throughout his career to better fit into the mma metagame, which is how you can end up with situations where a guy with Cormeir's pedigree ends up getting taken down by a guy like Jones (or, for that matter, how a guy like Jones can end up getting taken down by a guy like Gustafsson).

A lot of the praxis in more contingent/specialized combat sport rule-sets is predicated on the situation where you are contending with an opponent who is also coming together and willing to engage you head-to-head on the same plane. But that is rarely the case in MMA, which then filters and recasts what the most useful stylistic choices from that tradition which would be the most adaptive (usually, more active 'go-gettem' ttp's).

When specializing in something in mma, the most important thing to train is not necessarily beating other specialists in that area, but how to force the fight into that area in the first place.

 

[j123]

???
It's the same with every single top MMA fighter. Even Machida trained grappling (Sumo and BJJ), and he even trained in boxing.

Joanna competed in Muay Thai for 10 years, winning 70 matches and six world championships and four European championships. I don't see how she's not a Nak Muay.

Of course you have to adapt your style and cross-train for MMA, it's the same with any Karate fighter too.

You can compete in MT tournaments and fights, given your style abides by the rules, but you still are possibly not be a purebred nak muay. I've seen MMA gyms send in sloppy brawling "kickboxers" that win fights and sometimes titles in a shallower division. I can't really say they're nak muays. Lack of teeps, elbows, clinching knowledge ends at the double collar, escapes from clinching by throws is usually questionable .

So I see Ashihara's point

 

[tekkennlee]

When you specialize in something in mma, 8 times out of 10, You will be fighting a guy who's gameplan revolves around not engaging you in that area. Not enough people really appreciate what an effect this has on the metagame of useful tactics, training, and procedures.

Take a guy like Danial Cormier for instance; in his career as an olympic wrestler, his game basically revolved around getting the tie-ups he liked, baiting his opponent into taking a shot, and then reversing them with a go behind.

Obviously, pretty much no-one has ever obliged him in such a way inside the cage.

Its not something that's ever really touched on, but he had to pretty much completely retool the way he wrestled all throughout his career to better fit into the mma metagame, which is how you can end up with situations where a guy with Cormeir's pedigree ends up getting taken down by a guy like Jones (or, for that matter, how a guy like Jones can end up getting taken down by a guy like Gustafsson).

A lot of the praxis in more contingent/'purer' combat sport rule-sets is predicated on the situation where you are contending with an opponent who is also coming together and going head-to-head with you on the same plane. But that is rarely the case in MMA, which then filters and recasts what the most useful stylistic choices from that tradition are that would be the most adaptive (usually, more active 'go-gettem' ttp's).

When specializing in something in mma, the most important thing to train is not necessarily beating other specialists in that area, but how to force the fight into that area in the fof me and toy with meirst place.

i agree But i have had guys 6-1 2oo pouds stand in front ot me and toy with me like a kid nex time i toyd with him training sparing

 

[tekkennlee]

He was a Ninja i used white crane only problem was size and m e being a new student i allways spar with big guys

 

[tekkennlee]

I have a big frame like james toney

 

[rmongler]

He was a Ninja i used white crane only problem was size and m e being a new student i allways spar with big guys

Your crane style is no match for my LEMON-LIME EAGLE CLAW!

 

[tekkennlee]

Your crane style is no match for my LEMON-LIME EAGLE CLAW!

look dumb ass respect all arts fake ass MMA no NNA

 

[tekkennlee]

This fool thnks Gung Fu dont think we use arm -bars or chokes lo we use them all it comes from Africa

 

[rmongler]

look dumb ass respect all arts fake ass MMA no NNA

 

[j123]

Is tekkennlee, John South?

 

[Hotora86]

I have been doing arts fore years i got jumped bvuy 11 guys i in a playground
i got beat up my dad tought me Gung Fu White Crane and boxing , he told me go to the park defend yourself . I beat all of them all easy now I want to learn , all styles all arts. Next is Karate it works if use in the proper way .

You sound like that manga character who wanted to learn all martial arts.

 

[ARIZE]

@Mongler

I think there is 3 types of "great" fighter.
-Those who are good in any aspect of mma, and can beat any opponent in their own style. (Fedor comes to mind)
-Those who can adapt, and change their style depending on the weakness of their opponent.
-And those who have one style, but are able to impose it against any type of opponent. (Crocop comes to mind)

 

[rmongler]

-Those who are good in any aspect of mma, and can beat any opponent in their own style.

I often feel like when you see these kinds of situations, whats really going on is that the fighter is just so much better than his pool of competition that he hasn't really been tested yet. A plan to train every thing is basically a plan to train no thing; all else being equal, the guy more specialized in more essential aspects of the game, who can beat his counterpart in that aspect, will then oblige his counterpart to in turn emphasize more of what his own true strong points are, in order to remain or gain a competitive edge.

To borrow an analogy: if you imagine an elite level opponent has like 700 'defense', while you have a whole bunch of 'moves' at around '500-600', it doesn't matter how many different ones you can employ if its all equally fruitless in the end. If you want to get over that hump you need to invest more of that into fewer of those that will let you break through that ceiling.

As a general rule, a golden hammer beats a magic toolbox in combat sports. You need to be familiar with everything, so you can stall, defend, or avoid everything as necessary, but your proactivity, imposing your will on the opponent, depends on having an A-game.