Gracie weapon defenses

[RJ Green]

Japanese Jujitsu worked for hundreds of years.

Cite your sources

They wouldn't have trained it into the perfection that they did if it didn't work.

yes, this is why there are so many jujitsu traditionalists winning IBJJF and MMA matches

NeWaza was only successful in early Kano Jujitsu competition.

yes, nobody's ever won an MMA world championship or Judo gold medal with Newaza.

Japanese Jujitsu conquered nations!

oh yes. not the horses and boats and arrows. no, they swam over to mainland Asia and wrist-locked everyone. totally.

Les than 6 feet, less than 200lb's

I'm 6'4" 230. I'd run.

Never served

oh yes, modern militaries line up in formation and fight in melees

never worked a bouncers job

i bounced. you think people pull knives every weekend?

never worked LEO

gun

never worked operational security?

gun

Tell us again how bullshit weapons training is from your vast experience of zero?

unarmed disarmament of an armed attacker weapons training is delusional bullshit

LOL

 

[SummerStriker]

@RJ Green How do you think the evolution of technology would have gone differently if three million years ago, the first ape to smash two stones together to make a knife, had it slapped out of his hands?

 

[CFGroup]

Cite your sources



yes, this is why there are so many jujitsu traditionalists winning IBJJF and MMA matches




yes, nobody's ever won an MMA world championship or Judo gold medal with Newaza.




oh yes. not the horses and boats and arrows. no, they swam over to mainland Asia and wrist-locked everyone. totally.



I'm 6'4" 230. I'd run.



oh yes, modern militaries line up in formation and fight in melees




i bounced. you think people pull knives every weekend?




gun



gun




unarmed disarmament of an armed attacker weapons training is delusional bullshit

What ever Green U r the man and the 1# authority on....Everything.

You're like a fat out of shape dude who use to train so....

U r to oppinionated to really break down much of your narrow minded logic.

So go waste your time obsessing about Wolfman Dan.

LOL!

 

[tenniswhiz]

This is the best defense against a knife attack. This is what I train for defense against weapons.

 

[ReAnimator Reagan]

Their bs just like 99.9% of all techniques to defend vs weapons, at least knife...

Yes, the duck and roll and get on knees and open your mouth to be defiled are much better.

 

[Clinchster]

I'm mostly self defense focused. I did kali and silat for a long time and have taken everything at some point. I just think MMA sparring and padded stick MMA sparring are the best drills for being able to fight someone off, which makes BJJ / Wrestling, Kick Boxing and Kali Based Stick Fighting (not stick dancing) the best for it.

They just need to be modified a little for self defense (strategy for stronger people, bare knuckle striking, power lifting vs. staying in a weight class, reserving grappling until you can tell if the guy is holding something, pressing combo attacks and submissions vs. self defense and what is legal and so on and on). A lot of MMA will get you in trouble.

How about you?

About the same, i'm sure i'm less formerly trained then you are, but self defense is my MAIN focus. Though I will admit, I enjoy the grappling aspect the most....something about restraining a bigger opponent and being able to control them fascinates me. It still blows my mind our 135lber can legit be all over my ass like a spider monkey and there is still not a lot I can do. He's one of the guys i'd have to strike with if I ever actually fought him heh heh. I like all aspects though, and I think they each have key roles in over coming certain scenarios. Anyways, I was just wondering, you tend to have some good over all knowledge about the game. Cheers!

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

This is the best defense against a knife attack. This is what I train for defense against weapons.

Actually, while its okay, I'd argue that that 110 meter hurdles is a lot better. Jumping over parked cars and fences to get away is probably going to make most attackers give up quickly.

 

[DanaWhitesButler]

What do you think about Gracie's techniques designed to defend against weapons such as clubs, knives and guns?
I have always considered empty-handed techniques against armed opponents to be bullshit, but it seems kinda strange to me that the Gracies will teach ineffective and untested techniques.

What do you think about them and what is the general consensus on this subject?

I really do not like training that shit at all. Every time I've had to do it, it annoys me that it takes away valuable training time when I could be focusing on the BJJ training that I need

 

[DanaWhitesButler]

Actually, while its okay, I'd argue that that 110 meter hurdles is a lot better. Jumping over parked cars and fences to get away is probably going to make most attackers give up quickly.

This is the truth. Running is the best defense. Instead of spending that time doing weapon defense, it would be better spent doing sprints for 10 or 15 minutes a day

 

[Kirra]

We had some Krav Maga people training at our gym a while back and their trainer overheard me talking shit about the weapon defense aspect of martial arts.

He claimed that with training you can defend against knife attacks somewhat effectively, so we went out and tried it.

I took the rubber knife, went "Ready? Ok, go" and just lunged at him from like an arms length. He couldn't do shit to defend. I simply collar tied him with my front arm and kept rapidly stabbing him with the knife arm. He then got a hold of my knife arm (After getting stabbed like 10 times) so I bear hugged him and tripped him to the ground taking easy mount.

He then proceeded to tell me that it would be a different situation if we allowed for strikes (even though we never talked about strikes being disallowed). Self defense quacks gonna quack I guess.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

This is the truth. Running is the best defense. Instead of spending that time doing weapon defense, it would be better spent doing sprints for 10 or 15 minutes a day

Yup. Another other option, if you really can't run (ie you're too old or heavy to realistically outrun anyone) is to get good at drawing and handling weapons yourself - knife on knife or heavy cane on knife is much better than unarmed on knife, and according to cops I know, is often enough to convince the attacker to find a different victim. Running is still better if you can do it though, especially since as often as not you don't have time to draw your own weapon before being attacked.

But training unarmed against weapons is, as you say, a very inefficient use of your time.

 

[SummerStriker]

Yup. Another other option, if you really can't run (ie you're too old or heavy to realistically outrun anyone) is to get good at handling weapons yourself - knife on knife or heavy cane on knife is much better than unarmed on knife, and according to cops I know, is often enough to convince the attacker to find a different victim. Running is still better if you can do it though, especially since as often as not you don't have time to draw your own weapon before being attacked.

What people don't understand about "heavy cane" is that it needs to be really fucking heavy. Then to use it, you have to raise it, a threatening act in itself, so if your attacker is close enough to threaten you with the knife, it won't do you any good.

The only kind of club that will save you from a knife is one that is heavy enough to break someone's arm or knock them out with a single blow. Kali sticks are worthless. Most sticks are useless. I mean, if you are serious about having a shot with a club against a knife, you need like a three inch diameter hickory stick or something.

Because you need a "high guard" with a stick, it won't help you in a prolonged fight with a killer. You're arms will get tired, while the knifer can just follow you around and wait. That means you need to make an escape while you use the stick to keep a bubble of room around yourself.

Uppercuts, pokes, short chops and one handed swings will not stop a bliz, unarmed or otherwise.

Most people who learn "stick fighting" are really learning bastard Spanish saber fencing - shit that is largely useless with a club.

 

[j123]

This is the best defense against a knife attack. This is what I train for defense against weapons.

What if the assailant is more athletic

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

What people don't understand about "heavy cane" is that it needs to be really fucking heavy. Then to use it, you have to raise it, a threatening act in itself, so if your attacker is close enough to threaten you with the knife, it won't do you any good.

The only kind of club that will save you from a knife is one that is heavy enough to break someone's arm or knock them out with a single blow. Kali sticks are worthless. Most sticks are useless. I mean, if you are serious about having a shot with a club against a knife, you need like a three inch diameter hickory stick or something.

Because you need a "high guard" with a stick, it won't help you in a prolonged fight with a killer. You're arms will get tired, while the knifer can just follow you around and wait. That means you need to make an escape while you use the stick to keep a bubble of room around yourself.

Uppercuts, pokes, short chops and one handed swings will not stop a bliz, unarmed or otherwise.

Most people who learn "stick fighting" are really learning bastard Spanish saber fencing - shit that is largely useless with a club.

I agree. Canes were reportedly often successfully used against knife attacks in the middle ages (this shows up fairly regularly in historical accounts of the period), but my guess is the canes were either more or less clubs (like shillelaghs) or spears, and the people using them were both quite practiced with them, and were willing to brandish them when any potential attacker was still fairly far away - something that would get you into trouble with the law today.

Moreover, more often than not they're described as using the canes as spears (and out of the standard spear stance) - suggesting they were, as you say, both solid and fairly long (4 feet or more), more of a walking stick than what we consider a cane today. And often with a sharp bottom, either a blade or sharpened, hardened wood (again illegal today in most places, or at least likely to bring you a lot of unwanted police attention). Which makes sense - a four feet spear in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is going to be pretty effective against a knife if the spear person is allowed to point it at anyone who approaches within ten feet.

In fact, you read of people defeating swords in medieval times with walking sticks, which makes me thing those walking sticks were probably quarter staffs with sharpened ends - not really something you're going to walk around with today.

However, if you google you can find video camera examples of people keeping only partially motivated knife attackers at a distance just by swinging a flimsy cane quickly - apparently a few knife attackers are either too lazy or too pain intolerant to bother going through the cane. And its still probably going to be better than unarmed; for one thing, it could create enough distraction to let you run away/find other distractions etc.

 

[SummerStriker]

However, if you google you can find video camera examples of people keeping only partially motivated knife attackers at a distance just by swinging a flimsy cane quickly - apparently a few knife attackers are either too lazy or too pain intolerant to bother going through the cane. And its still probably going to be better than unarmed; for one thing, it could create enough distraction to let you run away/find other distractions etc.

I agree with you mostly, except for the last point. Assuming we're all talking about highly trained, serious martial artists, I don't think a light stick is even as good as being bare handed.

You're lucky if you can keep someone away with a cane, but most likely, it is because the guy with the knife was just performing a threat display and wasn't really going to come at you if he thinks you're going to fight back at all.

The problem with a light stick is that it is basically a nerf weapon. You just aren't going to knock someone out with it unless you score a GREAT shot, which isn't something you can count on. If you don't hit on the sweet spot perfect, at full power, which is hard with a maniac rushing you, he won't be stopped by it. Then he's in your space with a knife, killing you.

The advantage of being unarmed is that the knifer, probably not being a great martial artist himself, will have no better reflexes to defend your well executed straight right, which you can use to knock him the fuck out if he comes at you. A hard punch to the face has the ability to override the issue of pain compliance and fear, and straight flip the attacker's lights off. That's what you need - to injure him right away. That's only possible if you can hit him hard enough to fuck him up.

With a powerful straight right, thanks to years of boxing sparring and power lifting, or with a three inch hickory stick.