Gracie Jiu Jitsue full basic techniques

[The Half Blood Prince]

I didn't take the examples out of context, I'm not arguing that "sport" bjj techniques are street or MMA applicable (although many of them can be), I'm arguing that the whole argument is redundant. You're talking about what happens in a fight. I'm saying BJJ isn't where you learn how to fight any more, it's where you learn the grappling part of fighting, and that is perfectly fine. There are some BJJ schools that will have classes that do a great job of teaching self defence, but no matter how well they teach it will be inferior to learning striking/grappling/takedowns and putting them together at an MMA school. This is why I refer to 1993. Nobody cares that "sports" BJJ doesn't work on the streets except you and those selling the idea that their BJJ is pure uncut Helio self defence magic or whatever. I don't give a fuck about those breakdowns showing "sports" BJJ to suck because the vast majority of the time on fight videos the person who knows grappling wrecks the person who doesn't, I even agree that most of the techniques in BJJ aren't ideally suited for "DA STREETS" or MMA. In the same way every other martial art that can be used in MMA simplifies or modifies itself to take into account the change in scenario. Your ability to defend yourself is your responsibility, you can defend yourself better by training MMA instead of complaining that BJJ is too sporty nowadays. Its like you people are complaining that your knife isn't sharp enough when you can just buy a fucking gun, get a grip.

I refering to self defense in the street, in he stret you will most likey be up against an untrained opponent, where if you use your sport jiu jitsu as many people who do sport jiu jitsu dont train in other martial arts i think, sport jiu jitsu will not work in the streets, because if the concept of distance management and how its not taught in sports school. Even if u wanted to learn mma sport jiu jitsu isnt totally applicale for mma as it doesnt teach how to protect against punches nor does it teaches distance management, if you want to learn self defense the real gracie jiu jitsu that became known in the us in 1993 is still more effective and eficent than the sport jiu jitsu of today, watch firas's videos and he explains why sport jiu jitsu doesnt work in a real fight, even Machado's son said it in his youtube video, even Roger gracie said 80% of sport jiu jitsu techniques dont work. Its common sense really. The realty is people who do sport jiu jitsu do think it it self defense and works in the street, this is not completley true, what if ipthe attacker is on top and punching?

 

[sausageshop]

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

Oh no a gif my argument got destroyed
Name one thing i said there that wasnt right

 

[sausageshop]

Nobody here is arguing for "sports jiu jitsu" as self defence, you are taking the fact that sports BJJ isn't optimal for self defence (which people in general terms agree with, and I also agree with) and are using this fact to claim that everyone else except for those teaching Helio Gracie approved BJJ is doing it wrong, and you're making statements that you have no possible means to back up:

See how its so different to the bjj 95% of bjj schools teach

In sport jiu jitsu schools they dont teach that

The realty is people who do sport jiu jitsu do think it it self defense and works in the street

How can you possibly know this? Please find me some evidence that these things are true. With regards to the 3rd quote you yourself said you do sports jiu jitsu and enjoy it, and somehow you know what works on the street and what doesn't but everyone else doesn't?

Here is the Gracie Barra Fundamentals curriculum, it looks very much like other associations beginners curricula, Gracie Barra is a "sports" jiu jitsu association, it's also the biggest association in the world. Oh shit look at all this self defence stuff being taught, a lot of the contents are even straight copies or evolutions of the techniques from the video you originally posted.

The point I'm making is not whether sports or self defence or whatever BJJ training you do or is available to you is good or correct or the right way, it's that there probably isn't as much difference in what is taught at "self defence" schools and "sports" schools as you'd like to think.

Furthermore, what I am trying to figure out is why you need to prove that Helios BJJ is the pure super self defence BJJ anyway. If you could, please answer me the following questions.

1. Is self defence important to you personally?
2. Which is better for self defence: MMA, "self defence BJJ", "sports BJJ"? (hint: it's MMA)
   
3. If self defence is the primary motivation for your training and MMA is the best form of unarmed self defence are you training MMA? If not why not?

Really what I want to know is why you need to believe that everyone else's reasons for training, what they teach or learn, how they practice, how they think, what they would do in a fight is wrong? Also how you have the balls to presume all this shit about other people.

I beg of you please don't reply to me about how sports bjj is bad for fighting because I was never having this argument in the first place in fact I already begged ...

I don't mean to start a sports vs street debate here so please don't start one!

 

[yetanother]

1. Which is better for self defence: MMA, "self defence BJJ", "sports BJJ"? (hint: it's MMA)
   
2. If self defence is the primary motivation for your training and MMA is the best form of unarmed self defence are you training MMA? If not why not?

Most of the people selling self defence "BJJ" want to target the crowd that TMA are sold too.
People who are to soft to train for competiton and are concerned about self defence because the got bullied in school etc.
Also a lot of black belt suck and haven't kept up with the evolution of bjj so they want to go to badly done "basics" because they don't know how to berimbolo etc..

 

[sausageshop]

Most of the people selling self defence "BJJ" want to target the crowd that TMA are sold too.
People who are to soft to train for competiton and are concerned about self defence because the got bullied in school etc.
Also a lot of black belt suck and haven't kept up with the evolution of bjj so they want to go to badly done "basics" because they don't know how to berimbolo etc..

Don't you understand? It's those who don't follow Helio, who died so that we could stop improving BJJ, that are the soft ones! Because life is a jungle and I want to be the shark that eats his fruits and vegetables or something .

 

[liuk3]

That's a pretty cool curriculum if that's what Gracie Barra teaches in their beginners class. Thanks.

 

[yetanother]

The Gracia Barra basics curriculum sucks it seems to largely consists of trash techniques.

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

Nobody here is arguing for "sports jiu jitsu" as self defence, you are taking the fact that sports BJJ isn't optimal for self defence (which people in general terms agree with, and I also agree with) and are using this fact to claim that everyone else except for those teaching Helio Gracie approved BJJ is doing it wrong, and you're making statements that you have no possible means to back up:





How can you possibly know this? Please find me some evidence that these things are true. With regards to the 3rd quote you yourself said you do sports jiu jitsu and enjoy it, and somehow you know what works on the street and what doesn't but everyone else doesn't?

Here is the Gracie Barra Fundamentals curriculum, it looks very much like other associations beginners curricula, Gracie Barra is a "sports" jiu jitsu association, it's also the biggest association in the world. Oh shit look at all this self defence stuff being taught, a lot of the contents are even straight copies or evolutions of the techniques from the video you originally posted.

The point I'm making is not whether sports or self defence or whatever BJJ training you do or is available to you is good or correct or the right way, it's that there probably isn't as much difference in what is taught at "self defence" schools and "sports" schools as you'd like to think.

Furthermore, what I am trying to figure out is why you need to prove that Helios BJJ is the pure super self defence BJJ anyway. If you could, please answer me the following questions.

1. Is self defence important to you personally?
2. Which is better for self defence: MMA, "self defence BJJ", "sports BJJ"? (hint: it's MMA)
   
3. If self defence is the primary motivation for your training and MMA is the best form of unarmed self defence are you training MMA? If not why not?

Really what I want to know is why you need to believe that everyone else's reasons for training, what they teach or learn, how they practice, how they think, what they would do in a fight is wrong? Also how you have the balls to presume all this shit about other people.

I beg of you please don't reply to me about how sports bjj is bad for fighting because I was never having this argument in the first place in fact I already begged ...

Im not saying peoples training is wrong. Im just saying the fact. Also when when people do mma they train bjj, but they learn the street self defense bjj not the sport jiu jitsu. Your example Gracie Barra is both a sport and self defense school so that doesnt prove your point. The Gracie academy also teaches sport and street jiu jitsu. What i was reffering to when i sad sport jiu jitsu schools where schools that dont teach street jiu jitsu..... hence the context. Obviously that 95% was a guess and based on schools in vic, if u actually look at how many schools in victoria there are, there is only 3 that actually teach self defense..... and bjj in victoria is so popular

Also i know people who who do sport jiu jitsu do think its self defense, as i have asked them. ( they were commonly white belts) i have actually done and watched the gracie academy circuliam via gracie univerity and its a lot different to what i learn in sport jiu jitsu. For eg. In sport jiu jitsu there are so many endless techniques u can do because u dont have to worry about getting punched or headbutted etc. Take a look at the closing the distance lesson, 4 stages of punch block protection (theres even an strike u learn in the 4th variation) etc

 

[sausageshop]

Also when when people do mma they train bjj, but they learn the street self defense bjj not the sport jiu jitsu.

Again how is this something you can possibly claim with any accuracy or authority? The only MMA fighter of note whose BJJ game in MMA resembles the Gracie Academy curriculum (this seems to be your reference point as to what is and isn't self defence BJJ) is Brian Ortega. I would list the successful MMA fighters with an extensive "sports" background but I don't want to be here all day.

Your example Gracie Barra is both a sport and self defense school so that doesnt prove your point.

Sure buddy, having gone white-purple at a notable GB school I wouldn't know shit about that, so I'll take your word for it.

What i was reffering to when i sad sport jiu jitsu schools where schools that dont teach street jiu jitsu..... hence the context. Obviously that 95% was a guess and based on schools in vic, if u actually look at how many schools in victoria there are, there is only 3 that actually teach self defense..... and bjj in victoria is so popular

On what basis are you categorising all these schools? Did you train at all of them for long enough to see their entire teaching cycles? Is their curricula posted online? In your mind what qualifies a school as teaching "street jiu jitsu" and how did you assess each school in Victoria?

Also i know people who who do sport jiu jitsu do think its self defense, as i have asked them. ( they were commonly white belts)

Holy shit stupid white belts? Well knock me over with a feather! Let me introduce to you the Dunning-Kruger Effect:

I suspect you are at the "I once was blind and now I see" point of the graph, with a very specific obsession with "street jiu jitsu."

i have actually done and watched the gracie academy circuliam via gracie univerity and its a lot different to what i learn in sport jiu jitsu.

It's all beginning to make sense now, your path to BJJ began with a desire for self defence, the only BJJ people who market very strongly towards the self defence crowd (at least on a global scale) are Gracie Academy so naturally they become your reference point as to what is and isn't self defence. Furthermore you actually paid for their online curriculum, which I'm sure is a fine product, and this reinforced your views regarding self defence vs sport having dropped money into it and wanting to feel it was money well spent. It seems to me that you need there to be a huge difference between sport and street BJJ because this is the lens through which you see BJJ. From my own experience the difference isn't that large.

For eg. In sport jiu jitsu there are so many endless techniques u can do because u dont have to worry about getting punched or headbutted etc.

Why are you telling me this as if it is news to anyone? I literally asked for you not to keep repeating this.

Take a look at the closing the distance lesson, 4 stages of punch block protection (theres even an strike u learn in the 4th variation) etc

Great, how often do you incorporate these techniques into your live training? What is your training balance between "sports" and "street" jiu jitsu? Do you train regularly with strikes to try to implement the self defence techniques you have learned? If so how regularly? What do you feel qualifies you to comment on what is and isn't effective on the street?

I'll finish by asking you to answer the 3 questions I asked in my last post which you ignored.

1. Is self defence important to you personally?
2. Which is better for self defence: MMA, "self defence BJJ", "sports BJJ"? (hint: it's MMA)
   
3. If self defence is the primary motivation for your training and MMA is the best form of unarmed self defence are you training MMA? If not why not?

 

[yetanother]

when people train sport jiu jitsu what made them start it was the fact that they saw a smaller weaker guy defeat bigger untrained opponents in a real fight

Dunno I'm a taller than average dude (and I'm a lot bigger and stronger then most people now days due to putting on muscle due to my sport jiu jitsu training) so the be a small guy defeating bigger untrained opponents never particularly appealed to me.

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

go, list some bjj people who had sucessful competition bjj careers. You'd only be proving my point, because the bjj u see in compeition is much different than what u see in mma. Because the bjj used in mma is the self defense aspect.

They probably dont teach self defense because they are not gracie certified, and it is rare to see a street jiu jitsu school as its the sport compeition that appeals to many due to the rise of mma.

No u have got it wrong, i wish they gap was small. I train in a sport jiu jitsu school right now. At white belt there is a big difference. Definetly. I'd want there to be a small gap so i could think i could use my bjj to defend myself

Of course, self defense is important. I answered your question and when people do mma they generally do jiu jitsu and the jiu jitsu taught for mma is not the sport version which is what nearly all bjj schools teach. Not doing mma right now as i have vce which is stressful and takes a huge amount of time, i will be learnjg muay thai as well after i finish my last year of school

What are u on about with the graph thing, u said what i said about people thinking sport jiu jitsu is self defence, is wrong so i told u how i knew......

 

[sausageshop]

I'm just going to stop here, you are so certain about these things you don't realise how confused you are. Also you appear to be a child.

it is rare to see a street jiu jitsu school as its the sport compeition that appeals to many due to the rise of mma

So shouldn't there be more self defence schools since MMA fighters only train self defence BJJ and MMA is why BJJ is popular? Oh wait I get it now, it's the sports BJJ people who are suckers because MMA fighters don't actually train sports BJJ they train Gracie Combatives. Instead of finding the best grapplers possible to train with they are doing the combatives curriculum? Makes sense, I should tell all the MMA fighters at my gym they need to move out of town because there's no Gracie garage here.

They probably dont teach self defense because they are not gracie certified

This doesn't even need commenting on.

If you continue training please make sure you delete these posts so you don't have to look back on them with embarrassment in a few years time. Good luck sir.

 

[liuk3]

The Gracia Barra basics curriculum sucks it seems to largely consists of trash techniques.

Can you please elaborate on the trash techniques? I am not very experienced. Thanks.

 

[lechien]

I refering to self defense in the street, in he stret you will most likey be up against an untrained opponent, where if you use your sport jiu jitsu as many people who do sport jiu jitsu dont train in other martial arts i think, sport jiu jitsu will not work in the streets, The realty is people who do sport jiu jitsu do think it it self defense and works in the street, this is not completley true, what if ipthe attacker is on top and punching?

Please explain how an untrained person can ended up mounting a sport Bjj guy?

But in case it happens, escaping from Mount against a trained Bjj guy is way harder than an untrained person that punch you.

So what is your point again?

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

I'm just going to stop here, you are so certain about these things you don't realise how confused you are. Also you appear to be a child.



So shouldn't there be more self defence schools since MMA fighters only train self defence BJJ and MMA is why BJJ is popular? Oh wait I get it now, it's the sports BJJ people who are suckers because MMA fighters don't actually train sports BJJ they train Gracie Combatives. Instead of finding the best grapplers possible to train with they are doing the combatives curriculum? Makes sense, I should tell all the MMA fighters at my gym they need to move out of town because there's no Gracie garage here.



This doesn't even need commenting on.

If you continue training please make sure you delete these posts so you don't have to look back on them with embarrassment in a few years time. Good luck sir.

Sport jiu jitsu teachers can teach bjj for mma and thats what they do in private training
I dont see anything embarrasing or regretting that i have said, yes i may have exaggerated and used guesstimates but it is very likley that in victoria most schools teach sport jiu jitsu
No the sportmjiu jitsu competition appeals to people, and at the start they dont generally dont know the difference between sport and street jiu jitsu. Like what else says they teach bjj for self defense? Theres no proof if u look at their website etc we know nearly all schools teach sport jiu jitsu because of the appeal of competition. Its a known fact

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

Please explain how an untrained person can ended up mounting a sport Bjj guy?

But in case it happens, escaping from Mount against a trained Bjj guy is way harder than an untrained person that punch you.

So what is your point again?

What if the untrained sports jiu jitsu guy is on the bottom and the untrained guy is throwing punches?
In sport jiu jitsu u dont get taught how to block punches, and its actually happen. Rener was talking about a purple belt who rang him up as if to say why he didnt learn it as he was getting beaten. Firas talks about the ineffectivness of sport jiu jitsu in a real fight and even Roger said 80% of the techniques in sport jiu jitsu isnt effective in a real fight

 

[lechien]

What if the untrained sports jiu jitsu guy is on the bottom and the untrained guy is throwing punches?
In sport jiu jitsu u dont get taught how to block punches, and its actually happen. Rener was talking about a purple belt who rang him up as if to say why he didnt learn it as he was getting beaten. Firas talks about the ineffectivness of sport jiu jitsu in a real fight and even Roger said 80% of the techniques in sport jiu jitsu isnt effective in a real fight

You still have not explained how an untrained person can take a competition sport tested Bjj guy down and even worst! Ended up mounting.

Are you for real?

There is no way the above scenario would happen.

The sport Bjj guy would have taken him down anytime he wants to.

Once again training with boxing gloves while mimicking an attack is nice.

But you are only mimicking.
Just like those videos that Renee asks people to send him so he could grade them to blue belt.

 

[The Half Blood Prince]

You still have not explained how an untrained person can take a competition sport tested Bjj guy and even worst! Ended up mounting.

Are you for real?

There is no way the above scenario would happen.

The sport Bjj guy would have taken him down anytime he wants to.

The untrained guy wont mount him ofc. But whats to say the he will get the takedown against a bigger opponent, does he know how to close the distance properly. Bjj guys arent known for their takedowns as much, some schools just start from their knees. The thing is, a trained guy being on the bottom can happen, which can occur if they are bigger etc. If that happens what happens if the top guy throws punches, if u dont know how to defend them your in trouble
What if u make a mistake while going for a takedown, what if u make a mistake on top and you get flipped over by a bigger and stronger guy

 

[lechien]

The untrained guy wont mount him ofc. But whats to say the he will get the takedown against a bigger opponent, does he know how to close the distance properly. Bjj guys arent known for their takedowns as much, some schools just start from their knees. The thing is, a trained guy being on the bottom can happen, which can occur if they are bigger etc. If that happens what happens if the top guy throws punches, if u dont know how to defend them your in trouble
What if u make a mistake while going for a takedown, what if u make a mistake on top and you get flipped over by a bigger and stronger guy

Lol.

What if? What if!

You are using the doomsayer strategy to scarecrow people.

Sport Bjj has solid takedowns.

Even if you end up at the bottom in your guard. You just submit the guys, you think that sport Bjj guy cannot submit an untrained person because there is strikes involved!
Think again, Bjj sport guys can submit a full resisting trained sport Bjj guy.
Imagine how easy it is to submit an untrained person!

Worst case scenario, I would do a technical stand up and kick you in the head.