Gracie Jiu Jitsue full basic techniques

The Half Blood Prince

The Half Blood Prince

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A really cool great video straight from Riorion and Royce
See how its so different to the bjj 95% of bjj schools teach
 
I think he is referring of the first technique: clinching while ducking punches.
 
A lot of older American black belts probably got there start with these back when blue belts were uncommon in the US let alone a black belt in every city like today.
 
As a piece of grappling history this video is interesting, but to say that 95% of schools don't teach the contents isn't really a valid complaint or accurate assertion. I'm not 100% sure of the implication of the thread starter but given that he mentions sport jiu jitsu schools he may be leaning towards self defence in the self defence vs sport debate that exists only on the internet and as a marketing strategy for Gracie Academy and a few other schools.

It's not 1993 any more, if you want to learn how to fight BJJ should be one part but not the only part of your training. The argument against sports jiu jitsu is based on a half truth and wilfully ignores the bigger picture of combat sports and MMA. The half truth is that back in the day BJJ people were training for vale tudo so BJJ was a tougher activity with tougher competitors and that modern sports competitors would get beaten up by them (shocking I know), this is a pretty accurate assessment. What is ignored as part of the self defence advocates argument is that modern sports competitors would also get beaten up by MMA fighters of similar experience today. This is completely normal, fighting training is fragmented, you take the parts you want from the different disciplines and build your style around that, even if you are a specialist you develop your other tools to the point where they complement or allow you to focus on your specialisation (like maia or ryan hall for example).

None of this is really evidence that BJJ is a less effective art, but rather that it has found its place within the bigger martial arts picture and this is perfectly fine. Let BJJ be an art where the boundaries of grappling are pushed to the limit and new and crazy shit gets discovered even if its not "street ready" or whatever. Let there be 10 different rule sets because these will allow people to explore different strategies and techniques to win. This is how the art gets pushed forward. Nobody forces anyone to practice BJJ in a particular way, if you want your game to be like Royce in 1993 or like a Miyao or your own style you can. Just don't tell me what I'm doing isn't real jiu jitsu because you're a rube and believe someone's marketing angle.

p.s. apologies, I know we already have a dumb thread running about TKD or some shit, I don't mean to start a sports vs street debate here so please don't start one!
 
sausageshop said:
As a piece of grappling history this video is interesting, but to say that 95% of schools don't teach the contents isn't really a valid complaint or accurate assertion. I'm not 100% sure of the implication of the thread starter but given that he mentions sport jiu jitsu schools he may be leaning towards self defence in the self defence vs sport debate that exists only on the internet and as a marketing strategy for Gracie Academy and a few other schools.

It's not 1993 any more, if you want to learn how to fight BJJ should be one part but not the only part of your training. The argument against sports jiu jitsu is based on a half truth and wilfully ignores the bigger picture of combat sports and MMA. The half truth is that back in the day BJJ people were training for vale tudo so BJJ was a tougher activity with tougher competitors and that modern sports competitors would get beaten up by them (shocking I know), this is a pretty accurate assessment. What is ignored as part of the self defence advocates argument is that modern sports competitors would also get beaten up by MMA fighters of similar experience today. This is completely normal, fighting training is fragmented, you take the parts you want from the different disciplines and build your style around that, even if you are a specialist you develop your other tools to the point where they complement or allow you to focus on your specialisation (like maia or ryan hall for example).

None of this is really evidence that BJJ is a less effective art, but rather that it has found its place within the bigger martial arts picture and this is perfectly fine. Let BJJ be an art where the boundaries of grappling are pushed to the limit and new and crazy shit gets discovered even if its not "street ready" or whatever. Let there be 10 different rule sets because these will allow people to explore different strategies and techniques to win. This is how the art gets pushed forward. Nobody forces anyone to practice BJJ in a particular way, if you want your game to be like Royce in 1993 or like a Miyao or your own style you can. Just don't tell me what I'm doing isn't real jiu jitsu because you're a rube and believe someone's marketing angle.

p.s. apologies, I know we already have a dumb thread running about TKD or some shit, I don't mean to start a sports vs street debate here so please don't start one!
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I understand what your saying but i can assure that Rener and Ryron arent doing trying to say all this sport vs street jiu jitsu stuff for money, they earn more than they ever needed from seminars and owning the Gracie Torrence headquaters, if you listen to them speak you can see clearly that they are so passionate about the preservatin of jiu jitsu. The problem isnt sport jiu jitsu necessarily, the problem is that when people train sport jiu jitsu what made them start it was the fact that they saw a smaller weaker guy defeat bigger untrained opponents in a real fight, thats what got them intrested and wanting to learn it, however when they do jiu jitsu there school often teaches the sport aspect only, therefore giving them a false belief that they can defend themself in a real street fight. If you watch their video adressing this which is close to an hour it talks about a purple belt who was getting beat from punches on the bottom. Firas Zahabi also has touched on this topic via breaking down a sport jiu jitsu fight in a street fight and labelling its flaws etc. as well as a breakdown of sport jiu jitsu in mma. Ryron and Rener they teach sport jiu jitsu at their academy, they want both to prosper but want the orginis of jiu jitsu ti be oreserved. Because that was what made Jiu jitsu, that was what made it effective and allowed jiu jitsu to compete against other martial arts, that was what Grand master Helio Gracie created and died for. In victoria there literally is only 3 schools that teach jiu jitsu for self defense, thats so tiny considering there are so many jiu jitsu schools in victoria. Dony get me wrong i love sport jiu jitsu as well, i practise it and enjoy the beautiful effencies of the technique, its great and there is an endless amounts of things to learn and explore
 
The Half Blood Prince said:
I understand what your saying but i can assure that Rener and Ryron arent doing trying to say all this sport vs street jiu jitsu stuff for money, they earn more than they ever needed from seminars and owning the Gracie Torrence headquaters, if you listen to them speak you can see clearly that they are so passionate about the preservatin of jiu jitsu. The problem isnt sport jiu jitsu necessarily, the problem is that when people train sport jiu jitsu what made them start it was the fact that they saw a smaller weaker guy defeat bigger untrained opponents in a real fight, thats what got them intrested and wanting to learn it, however when they do jiu jitsu there school often teaches the sport aspect only, therefore giving them a false belief that they can defend themself in a real street fight. If you watch their video adressing this which is close to an hour it talks about a purple belt who was getting beat from punches on the bottom. Firas Zahabi also has touched on this topic via breaking down a sport jiu jitsu fight in a street fight and labelling its flaws etc. as well as a breakdown of sport jiu jitsu in mma. Ryron and Rener they teach sport jiu jitsu at their academy, they want both to prosper but want the orginis of jiu jitsu ti be oreserved. Because that was what made Jiu jitsu, that was what made it effective and allowed jiu jitsu to compete against other martial arts, that was what Grand master Helio Gracie created and died for. In victoria there literally is only 3 schools that teach jiu jitsu for self defense, thats so tiny considering there are so many jiu jitsu schools in victoria. Dony get me wrong i love sport jiu jitsu as well, i practise it and enjoy the beautiful effencies of the technique, its great and there is an endless amounts of things to learn and explore
Click to expand...

You make too many assumptions, about what motivates people to train, about peoples understanding of their own jiu jitsu. Breaking down a fight where a BJJ guy loses isn't evidence that "sport" BJJ isn't good for street fights or that BJJ in general is bad its just evidence that 1 guy fucked up. In the same way that wrestling doesn't suck just because Jose Aldo beat Chad Mendes twice. The value of the techniques in BJJ that are considered or taught as self defence applicable are that they are taught in a context that a beginner can understand, the only issue being that the same techniques are rarely reviewed once you go beyond beginner level. There is no way that you can state with any certainty that 95% of academies don't teach what was on that video, the majority of the clinch entries and takedowns shown are commonly taught in fundamental programs (I know because I sifted through fundamental program curricula from as many associations as I could find so I could create a beginners program for the club I teach and train at). Labelling things as sport or self defence is totally unhelpful to BJJ as a whole, those who make the distinction and claim that they are just preserving the origins of BJJ are taking a step towards TMA thinking that I am uncomfortable with. Helio is a great guy I'm sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to do the same techniques he taught in exactly the same way he taught them for the sake of preservation of the art. Look at JJJ and see where that gets you. BJJ is good because it evolves, techniques get adjusted, improved, forgotten, rediscovered all the time. Nobody forces you to practice BJJ in a particular way and certainly nobody is forcing anyone to play DLR in a street fight and to imply that this is taught isn't helpful. Its not 1993, if you want to learn how to fight go to MMA and train multiple disciplines, don't complain that BJJ isn't enough on its own any more the world has moved on, you should too. I get where you are coming from but the problems you are describing already have solutions outside the BJJ academy.

(This isn't to say that many BJJ academies couldn't do a better job teaching self defence applicable BJJ).
 
sausageshop said:
You make too many assumptions, about what motivates people to train, about peoples understanding of their own jiu jitsu. Breaking down a fight where a BJJ guy loses isn't evidence that "sport" BJJ isn't good for street fights or that BJJ in general is bad its just evidence that 1 guy fucked up. In the same way that wrestling doesn't suck just because Jose Aldo beat Chad Mendes twice. The value of the techniques in BJJ that are considered or taught as self defence applicable are that they are taught in a context that a beginner can understand, the only issue being that the same techniques are rarely reviewed once you go beyond beginner level. There is no way that you can state with any certainty that 95% of academies don't teach what was on that video, the majority of the clinch entries and takedowns shown are commonly taught in fundamental programs (I know because I sifted through fundamental program curricula from as many associations as I could find so I could create a beginners program for the club I teach and train at). Labelling things as sport or self defence is totally unhelpful to BJJ as a whole, those who make the distinction and claim that they are just preserving the origins of BJJ are taking a step towards TMA thinking that I am uncomfortable with. Helio is a great guy I'm sure. That doesn't mean I'm going to do the same techniques he taught in exactly the same way he taught them for the sake of preservation of the art. Look at JJJ and see where that gets you. BJJ is good because it evolves, techniques get adjusted, improved, forgotten, rediscovered all the time. Nobody forces you to practice BJJ in a particular way and certainly nobody is forcing anyone to play DLR in a street fight and to imply that this is taught isn't helpful. Its not 1993, if you want to learn how to fight go to MMA and train multiple disciplines, don't complain that BJJ isn't enough on its own any more the world has moved on, you should too. I get where you are coming from but the problems you are describing already have solutions outside the BJJ academy.

(This isn't to say that many BJJ academies couldn't do a better job teaching self defence applicable BJJ).
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No thoose examples you took them out of context, a street fight where it involves untrained people can not be directly compared to mma fighters. The thing is sport jiu jitsu us not completley applicalble for a street fight. The normal distance that sport jiu jitsu is competed at will get your head smashed in, in a real fight. Even roger gracie said 80% of the sport jiu jitsu techniques are usless in a real fight. Thoose breakdowns specfically show and explain the ineffectivness of sport jiu jitsu in a street fight. In order to manage distance while at the bottom, in a street fight you have to be so close to them where your forced in a clinch style of fighting so they cant puch or strike u with power. Its pretty common sense sport jiu jitsu isnt necessarily street applicable. In my sport jiu jitsu school fundamentals definetly did not inclide how to block or stop punches from the bottom, how to effecitvley close the distance. The normal distance u fight when ur sparring in sport jiu jitsu is unacceptable in a street fight, because it allows enough distance for the attacker to effectivley strike you. This evolution of jiu jitsu that you are talking about is different to how you are perceiving it. The evolution of jiu jitsu which is sport jiu jitsu os not directly street applicle. It is helio gracie's bjj that is the real self defense. Who cares if its not 1993. Of course if u want to be a sucessful mma fighter you have to cross train but that does not take away the fact that sport jiu jitsu techniques dont work in the streets. if u watch the breakdowns and videos they explain perfectly why sport jiu jitsu doesnt work in a real fight, theres many more than just one example
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Roger-Gracie-80-of-BJJ-is-useless-in-MMA
 
The Half Blood Prince said:
i can assure that Rener and Ryron arent doing trying to say all this sport vs street jiu jitsu stuff for money
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The Half Blood Prince said:
No thoose examples you took them out of context, a street fight where it involves untrained people can not be directly compared to mma fighters. The thing is sport jiu jitsu us not completley applicalble for a street fight. The normal distance that sport jiu jitsu is competed at will get your head smashed in, in a real fight. Even roger gracie said 80% of the sport jiu jitsu techniques are usless in a real fight. Thoose breakdowns specfically show and explain the ineffectivness of sport jiu jitsu in a street fight. In order to manage distance while at the bottom, in a street fight you have to be so close to them where your forced in a clinch style of fighting so they cant puch or strike u with power. Its pretty common sense sport jiu jitsu isnt necessarily street applicable. In my sport jiu jitsu school fundamentals definetly did not inclide how to block or stop punches from the bottom, how to effecitvley close the distance. The normal distance u fight when ur sparring in sport jiu jitsu is unacceptable in a street fight, because it allows enough distance for the attacker to effectivley strike you. This evolution of jiu jitsu that you are talking about is different to how you are perceiving it. The evolution of jiu jitsu which is sport jiu jitsu os not directly street applicle. It is helio gracie's bjj that is the real self defense. Who cares if its not 1993. Of course if u want to be a sucessful mma fighter you have to cross train but that does not take away the fact that sport jiu jitsu techniques dont work in the streets. if u watch the breakdowns and videos they explain perfectly why sport jiu jitsu doesnt work in a real fight, theres many more than just one example
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Roger-Gracie-80-of-BJJ-is-useless-in-MMA
Click to expand...

I didn't take the examples out of context, I'm not arguing that "sport" bjj techniques are street or MMA applicable (although many of them can be), I'm arguing that the whole argument is redundant. You're talking about what happens in a fight. I'm saying BJJ isn't where you learn how to fight any more, it's where you learn the grappling part of fighting, and that is perfectly fine. There are some BJJ schools that will have classes that do a great job of teaching self defence, but no matter how well they teach it will be inferior to learning striking/grappling/takedowns and putting them together at an MMA school. This is why I refer to 1993. Nobody cares that "sports" BJJ doesn't work on the streets except you and those selling the idea that their BJJ is pure uncut Helio self defence magic or whatever. I don't give a fuck about those breakdowns showing "sports" BJJ to suck because the vast majority of the time on fight videos the person who knows grappling wrecks the person who doesn't, I even agree that most of the techniques in BJJ aren't ideally suited for "DA STREETS" or MMA. In the same way every other martial art that can be used in MMA simplifies or modifies itself to take into account the change in scenario. Your ability to defend yourself is your responsibility, you can defend yourself better by training MMA instead of complaining that BJJ is too sporty nowadays. Its like you people are complaining that your knife isn't sharp enough when you can just buy a fucking gun, get a grip.
 
sausageshop said:
I didn't take the examples out of context, I'm not arguing that "sport" bjj techniques are street or MMA applicable (although many of them can be), I'm arguing that the whole argument is redundant. You're talking about what happens in a fight. I'm saying BJJ isn't where you learn how to fight any more, it's where you learn the grappling part of fighting, and that is perfectly fine. There are some BJJ schools that will have classes that do a great job of teaching self defence, but no matter how well they teach it will be inferior to learning striking/grappling/takedowns and putting them together at an MMA school. This is why I refer to 1993. Nobody cares that "sports" BJJ doesn't work on the streets except you and those selling the idea that their BJJ is pure uncut Helio self defence magic or whatever. I don't give a fuck about those breakdowns showing "sports" BJJ to suck because the vast majority of the time on fight videos the person who knows grappling wrecks the person who doesn't, I even agree that most of the techniques in BJJ aren't ideally suited for "DA STREETS" or MMA. In the same way every other martial art that can be used in MMA simplifies or modifies itself to take into account the change in scenario. Your ability to defend yourself is your responsibility, you can defend yourself better by training MMA instead of complaining that BJJ is too sporty nowadays. Its like you people are complaining that your knife isn't sharp enough when you can just buy a fucking gun, get a grip.
Click to expand...


BJJ is awesome for defending against someone who have no clue what's going on on the ground. All those submissions are way too long to setup against someone who knows basic BJJ defense.

Just like TKD, Karate, Kung fu, Aikido... It's really good for defending against an agressor who have no martial arts training.

In Quebec City this weekend a weirdo tried to kidnap a 13 years old girl TKD brown belt who was training in the woods and she was able to kick him off her. So all those ''tricks'' and auto-defense moves are really good against drunks, weirdos and thugs who cannot fight properly.

If you want to defend against a well rounded martial artist, all those tricks won't worth shit. A kickboxer with decent grappling and a good awareness of what to use in a street can definitely help you more than knowing how to triangle from the guard and getting smashed on concrete. Maybe a good Krav Maga private parts strikes seminar can help you too.

In a couple of weeks I have a kubotan seminar on how to defend myself with basically a pen. It's gonna be fun to learn but I'm aware that if I try this against a real martial artist I might end up with a Kubotan up my ass.

Let's just hope that real martial artists do not tend to be agressors.
 
The Half Blood Prince said:
No thoose examples you took them out of context, a street fight where it involves untrained people can not be directly compared to mma fighters. The thing is sport jiu jitsu us not completley applicalble for a street fight. The normal distance that sport jiu jitsu is competed at will get your head smashed in, in a real fight. Even roger gracie said 80% of the sport jiu jitsu techniques are usless in a real fight. Thoose breakdowns specfically show and explain the ineffectivness of sport jiu jitsu in a street fight. In order to manage distance while at the bottom, in a street fight you have to be so close to them where your forced in a clinch style of fighting so they cant puch or strike u with power. Its pretty common sense sport jiu jitsu isnt necessarily street applicable. In my sport jiu jitsu school fundamentals definetly did not inclide how to block or stop punches from the bottom, how to effecitvley close the distance. The normal distance u fight when ur sparring in sport jiu jitsu is unacceptable in a street fight, because it allows enough distance for the attacker to effectivley strike you. This evolution of jiu jitsu that you are talking about is different to how you are perceiving it. The evolution of jiu jitsu which is sport jiu jitsu os not directly street applicle. It is helio gracie's bjj that is the real self defense. Who cares if its not 1993. Of course if u want to be a sucessful mma fighter you have to cross train but that does not take away the fact that sport jiu jitsu techniques dont work in the streets. if u watch the breakdowns and videos they explain perfectly why sport jiu jitsu doesnt work in a real fight, theres many more than just one example
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/Roger-Gracie-80-of-BJJ-is-useless-in-MMA
Click to expand...


Mate, Just plan your BJJ game around the type of BJJ you want to use in the future. I train at a pretty damn good sport orientated school in Australia,but everything I learn is useful. People do crazy stuff in the street and you would be surprised how close it is too fancy stuff done in BJJ like worm guard or similar. For a long time I thought gi BJJ was a waste of time and only trained no gi, but people will grab your clothing and do stuff like spider guard sweeps without even thinking. Let alone the fact that so many people have a very basic understanding of ground fighting from watching mma and training "teh UFC".
I work in jobs were you need to apply this stuff practically and still found your normal gi BJJ class to be the best way to train for these scenarios. You will find that a lot of security, cops and military also think the same. I focus my BJJ on being on top and being able to get up and run if needed. I avoid mount and stay in side control or knee on belly, unless a submission presents itself.I attack from the bottom with sweeps and taking the back for chokes. I am aware where I can and can't throw strikes while maintaining that position, but know that I would rather get up and make distance instead of going to court.

There is nothing wrong with sport BJJ, you just need to have some ownership in your training and plan on what you are going to roll like with certain training partners. If they are bigger than me I try and stay on top and control, if they are much smaller I defend there crazy guards and similar. Sometimes I just play turtle or bottom side control to be absolutely smashed by someone bigger and better and sometimes they just smash me and I get mauled for an entire round.

You seem to be worrying a lot about how you could be training more like a gladiator/old school vale tudo fighter instead of just training and getting better. It's fine but trust me you are better off getting some form of training at a decent price, rather than worrying about getting the best training you can at this time. If you become a pro mma fighter and this is your full time job then start worrying about all this sort of thing.
 
Hmm what is self defense really??? all i see are street fights that are one on one that can be avoided entirely, this has no place in civilized society. Show me a real self defense situation where this pure jiu jitsu beats a mugger who pulls out a knife behind you and demanding for your money and will definitely kill you. Fact is there is no real effective self defense set of techniques if you don't know you will be attacked.
 
I hate it when people who think they live in an honor society treat me like less of a man for thinking I'm from a dignity society.
 
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