Golovkin, Canelo, and The Lineal Middleweight Title

[nastyleft]

I agree that is how it would have to happen. That's actually how GGG finally got him out of there too, with a body shot.

I thought his corner stopped it?

 

[nastyleft]

I don't think the Chavez fight is any walk in the park for Canelo either. We got spoiled in some ways by Pacquiao and Mayweather defying size. They aren't typical though, because Mayweather is a defensive wiz with super long arms (nullying some of the size advantage his opponents have) and Pacquiao's quickness actually made him well-suited to fight big guys.

Canelo is not as well suited to fight people bigger than him, and neither are most boxers. Look at what happened when GGG fought a big guy in Jacobs. I favor Canelo to beat both Chavez and Lemieux, but this idea that his superior boxing ability will make those fights easy is not accurate, I don't think.

I think Canelo's ability to set up stuff guys dont see coming and his commitment to the big punch when he gets that opening is underrated. And we can only imagine how much better he'll be next fight. I havent seen him peak yet.

 

[nastyleft]

I just hope Chavez is in shape and not drained making weight. By all accounts he's on target so we might have a good fight ahead of us. I don't think skill wise Chavez will keep up but we'll see what type of effect Canelo's punches will have on a full blown MW.

The way he hung in there getting schooled by The Sexy and still almost finished him in the 12th showed he can dig deep and put punches together. We can only hope THAT guy steps in the ring against Canelo. Fireworks for sure, cause like you guys said, Canelo aint goin anywhere and will be fine with trying to prove he's the true Mexican Warrior. I actually think thats the reason for this fight getting done.

 

[nastyleft]

Yeah I'd pay for that fight, and it would get him used to fighting MW's, but it wouldn't do much for his claim to the title. I think he needs to fight GGG this year. Maybe Saunders or Lemieux first but waiting another year for the GGG fight just seems unreasonable to me.

I really dont think he cares so much about that title more than being "The Man" period, in all of boxing. He can get stripped, still make a fight with GGG, after beating Chavez Jr. Somehow win the GGG fight and his resume starts approaching legendary status....all people would want then is a Ward fight for all the marbles, end of story, Winner is undisputed P4P #1 and getting on ATG lists. MW title or not. That may be the bigger picture... (Ward maybe a stretch but thatd be the only guy left).

 

[nastyleft]

I understand what you are saying. But at the same time, Canelo has gotten by those smaller guys like Lara and Khan (in part) by having superior size and fire power. Lara had no interest in absorbing any punishment from Canelo, and that is a big reason why Canelo was able to outpoint him. Lara was on his horse the entire fight. Khan physically couldn't take the punishment, which is why he did the chicken dance every time he got hit and eventually got knocked out.

A guy like Liam Smith, who is small and relatively easy to hit was able to have some limited success, and last quite a while with Canelo. Eventually he just couldn't take the punishment. But if Liam Smith was a natural middleweight, that's not such an easy fight. I saw an interview the other day where Liam Smith said that he thought he was the same size as Canelo at the weigh in, but when they stepped in the ring he looked huge.

Canelo cannot take shots from Jacobs, GGG, and Lemieux the way he took shots from Kirkland, Cotto, Lara, Smith, etc. These are much bigger men he's fighting, and they are also p4p some of the harder punchers around. Their offense will pose a real risk to him, unlike anything he's really dealt with so far.

Canelo's best attribute at middleweight may end up being his defense, honestly. He's a very good defensive fighter, probably the best in the middleweight division (when he fights there). He's not going to blow through middleweights like he did Kirkland, Khan, and Smith.

Yeah, it will be his defense and ability to adjust.

 

[devante]

That's not a horrible comparison, really. You see Jacobs do it all the time; he can box beautifully but every once in a while he wants to stand and trade and prove he can give it back just as hard. I was impressed he was able to do that a few times against Golovkin (I think it was the 11th round when GGG tagged him, and he stood his ground and came back with two big punches of his own). He's got dog in him.

i think the power is a concern for saul, same w/golovkin; canelo feels he can box w/anyone, but his team knows saul isnt a big hitter and as good as he is/can be defensively. You can and will land big in spots; question is do you have the life altering power, kirkland could crack; but lack of off refinement and porous def allowed saul to get away from and make him pay for his attempts.

jacibs too long and mobile and skilled to get controlled by a non puncher like saul, golovkin to deliberate technical and tough to be controlled like that by saul.

not saying he cant beat either; but i think his team concern in either case isnt stylistic; it is considering the power of both guys and their ability to apply it. Golovkin stylistically is a easy fight ; but his durability and power make it risky, jacobs stylistically is diff. But his power / sixe make it a diff fight as well...

 

[Marc A]

I

i think the power is a concern for saul, same w/golovkin; canelo feels he can box w/anyone, but his team knows saul isnt a big hitter and as good as he is/can be defensively. You can and will land big in spots; question is do you have the life altering power, kirkland could crack; but lack of off refinement and porous def allowed saul to get away from and make him pay for his attempts.

jacibs too long and mobile and skilled to get controlled by a non puncher like saul, golovkin to deliberate technical and tough to be controlled like that by saul.

not saying he cant beat either; but i think his team concern in either case isnt stylistic; it is considering the power of both guys and their ability to apply it. Golovkin stylistically is a easy fight ; but his durability and power make it risky, jacobs stylistically is diff. But his power / sixe make it a diff fight as well...

nice analysis.
I'll add that Jacobs would be required to have a rehydration clause , not going let him get that wieght.

GGG is only a money thing , Oscar is pretty confident Canelo beats GGG

 

[JayE]

In some ways Jacobs could be a bigger stylistic issue for Canelo than Golovkin. I think both beat Canelo, but the way Jacobs boxed and moved against Golovkin, someone far better on the front foot than Canelo, suggests to me that Canelo would have a hard time getting his offense off with any regularity.

 

[JayE]

I

nice analysis.
I'll add that Jacobs would be required to have a rehydration clause , not going let him get that wieght.

GGG is only a money thing , Oscar is pretty confident Canelo beats GGG

As much as Jacobs is the bigger framed man than Canelo, Canelo has come in the mid 170s (where Jacobs came in) before. Rehydration clauses would cut both ways (and it appears Canelo has started to put on even more mass).

 

[Canelo]

I understand what you are saying. But at the same time, Canelo has gotten by those smaller guys like Lara and Khan (in part) by having superior size and fire power. Lara had no interest in absorbing any punishment from Canelo, and that is a big reason why Canelo was able to outpoint him. Lara was on his horse the entire fight. Khan physically couldn't take the punishment, which is why he did the chicken dance every time he got hit and eventually got knocked out.

A guy like Liam Smith, who is small and relatively easy to hit was able to have some limited success, and last quite a while with Canelo. Eventually he just couldn't take the punishment. But if Liam Smith was a natural middleweight, that's not such an easy fight. I saw an interview the other day where Liam Smith said that he thought he was the same size as Canelo at the weigh in, but when they stepped in the ring he looked huge.

Canelo cannot take shots from Jacobs, GGG, and Lemieux the way he took shots from Kirkland, Cotto, Lara, Smith, etc. These are much bigger men he's fighting, and they are also p4p some of the harder punchers around. Their offense will pose a real risk to him, unlike anything he's really dealt with so far.

Canelo's best attribute at middleweight may end up being his defense, honestly. He's a very good defensive fighter, probably the best in the middleweight division (when he fights there). He's not going to blow through middleweights like he did Kirkland, Khan, and Smith.

I'm not sure his size advantage aided him that much against Khan, looking at the fight, Canelo would have benefited more if he was naturally 10lbs lighter and able to move quicker. Pretty much anyone 140+ can KO Khan if they land a shot like that, but boxing with him is a different ball game. Khan would box the shit out of someone like Curtis Stevens until he finally gets caught. With that said, it helps that he has his natural strength to rely on. Lara fights the same against pretty much everyone too, he definitely felt the body shots but he took the headshots very well. That's another fight where I think being naturally lighter would have benefitted Canelo, he wasn't really able to assert his size for any prolonged moment of time. He essentially beat both of these fighters at their own game, boxing at distance.

Liam Smith just wasn't at the same level, I don't think he was landing the type of shots that would ever bother Canelo, nor do I think an extra 10lbs would have allowed him to take the body shots anywhere, but maybe he'd have been able to slow Canelo down a bit more, it's hard to speculate on this as it's all hypothetical.

I think it's forgotten a little that Canelo has already fought natural size middleweights who are bigger than him. If Canelo is naturally a MW fighting at JMW, then so are Trout, Angulo and Kirkland, the latter two hit very hard and probably weigh in a similar size to GGG on the night. Cotto also clearly hit very hard at MW, whether he was one or not, and he was barely able to get Canelo's attention with his power, so I think the signs are all positive in terms of his chin.

It's hard to say whether Canelo will suddenly not be able to take the shots of the bigger men at MW, but I'd say it's fair to argue that he'll probably be getting hit with less shots when he fights a slower guy like Lemiuex, and his offense should be more potent in terms of being able to land. I still think these advantage of fighting at MW outweigh the associated risks. I'd favor Canelo over Lemiuex more than I would Lara right now, and that's an important point because there's not many fighters at MW who fight like Lara.

I think that's the main thing, regardless of how much size factored into the results, Canelo struggled with Lara and Trout because they were a stylistic nightmare for him, and up at Middleweight, everyone seems to be right up his street in terms of style.

 

[nac386]

I'm not sure his size advantage aided him that much against Khan, looking at the fight, Canelo would have benefited more if he was naturally 10lbs lighter and able to move quicker. Pretty much anyone 140+ can KO Khan if they land a shot like that, but boxing with him is a different ball game. Khan would box the shit out of someone like Curtis Stevens until he finally gets caught. With that said, it helps that he has his natural strength to rely on. Lara fights the same against pretty much everyone too, he definitely felt the body shots but he took the headshots very well. That's another fight where I think being naturally lighter would have benefitted Canelo, he wasn't really able to assert his size for any prolonged moment of time. He essentially beat both of these fighters at their own game, boxing at distance.

Liam Smith just wasn't at the same level, I don't think he was landing the type of shots that would ever bother Canelo, nor do I think an extra 10lbs would have allowed him to take the body shots anywhere, but maybe he'd have been able to slow Canelo down a bit more, it's hard to speculate on this as it's all hypothetical.

I think it's forgotten a little that Canelo has already fought natural size middleweights who are bigger than him. If Canelo is naturally a MW fighting at JMW, then so are Trout, Angulo and Kirkland, the latter two hit very hard and probably weigh in a similar size to GGG on the night. Cotto also clearly hit very hard at MW, whether he was one or not, and he was barely able to get Canelo's attention with his power, so I think the signs are all positive in terms of his chin.

It's hard to say whether Canelo will suddenly not be able to take the shots of the bigger men at MW, but I'd say it's fair to argue that he'll probably be getting hit with less shots when he fights a slower guy like Lemiuex, and his offense should be more potent in terms of being able to land. I still think these advantage of fighting at MW outweigh the associated risks. I'd favor Canelo over Lemiuex more than I would Lara right now, and that's an important point because there's not many fighters at MW who fight like Lara.

I think that's the main thing, regardless of how much size factored into the results, Canelo struggled with Lara and Trout because they were a stylistic nightmare for him, and up at Middleweight, everyone seems to be right up his street in terms of style.

Canelo has fought some big guys at 154, but only Trout could be considered talented. Angulo and Kirkland were showcase fights, they were completely outclassed. There was a time when Angulo would have been a decent opponent, but when Canelo fought him he was finished. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it was a comeback fight following a bad loss. Angulo was exactly what he needed. Kirkland was another great showcase fight, nothing wrong with that one either.

I don't think Lemieux is slow. I actually think his hands are fairly quick, he just is not a good boxer so GGG was able to shut him down with superior skills. Lemieux's hands looked pretty quick against Stevens though.

I would favor Canelo over Lara more now than I did the first time. Canelo has gotten better, and Lara has not done anything to make me think he's improved. I'd favor Canelo over Lemieux too, but I'd have a little thought in the back of my head that questions how well Canelo will deal with big time middleweight power from a guy who can barely make 160 like Lemieux. Cotto had trouble hitting him clean, so I assume Lemieux would too. But the way Lemieux swats, I think he can cause disorientation even with a glancing blow.

 

[Marc A]

As much as Jacobs is the bigger framed man than Canelo, Canelo has come in the mid 170s (where Jacobs came in) before. Rehydration clauses would cut both ways (and it appears Canelo has started to put on even more mass).

It would hurt Jacobs a lot more . I'd add a smaller ring as well .

 

[Shoemaker]

It would hurt Jacobs a lot more . I'd add a smaller ring as well .

We'll see, but I thought Canelo looked yoked in his recent videos. He's going to come in right at 164 or 163. Probably lower, 163. Both guys are flat footed. Canelo is going to use speed to bust up Chavez Jr. Julio is going to step in, either eat a jab or an uppercut, and then try to defend against the next few punches. He'll find success in these exchanges because he's strong, but it won't last.

Chavez has the strength to end it with one punch but the odds are low. If Canelo can find Amir's body, he's find Chavez no problem. And come the 7th or 8th rounds, Julio will be eating some big shots upstairs because he can't quite get his feet where he wants to in time. Chavez Jr. wants to fight the same way Golovkin does (head-in-chest), but he's always been so much bigger that he never had to get that good at it, which is why guys like Fonfara could beat him.




I still pick Jacobs to edge Canelo (I'll show you text messages where I said that before Saturday, too). Golovkin is still a closer fight than people think (lol @ the threads about Canelo walking through GGG). I probably still pick Golovkin there. Jacobs didn't "expose" Golovkin. Gennedy's age didn't betray him. He just stepped up in competition after coming into the pro game relatively late.

The one thing I do want to say, though, is that Canelo is 100% the better counter-puncher than Golovkin is. No doubt, Gennady cuts off the ring better than Saul does. That isn't disputable. But, Canelo counters aggression better than Golovkin too. I mentioned it to people in private before the fight, but Golovkin doesn't do very well when you force him to move backward. I noticed it during the Lemieux fight. He either wants to initiate the exchange, or he gets out of range and resets. But he rarely fights moving backward, if at all. If you can push him onto his back foot, he becomes a lot less dynamic.

 

[Shoemaker]

@315MMAFighter ya know what? You're good people. What do you think?

 

[315MMAFighter]

@315MMAFighter ya know what? You're good people. What do you think?

I thought we was always bruvas lol.

 

[315MMAFighter]

@315MMAFighter ya know what? You're good people. What do you think?

Same to your bruv. All day every day !!

 

[315MMAFighter]

I

nice analysis.
I'll add that Jacobs would be required to have a rehydration clause , not going let him get that wieght.

GGG is only a money thing , Oscar is pretty confident Canelo beats GGG

Forget Oscar PantyOya, who you got if this bout if it was to materialize ?

 

[Marc A]

Forget Oscar PantyOya, who you got if this bout if it was to materialize ?

I'd favor both GGG and Jacobs over the Cinnamon

And Jacobs even more due to movement

 

[315MMAFighter]

I'd favor both GGG and Jacobs over the Cinnamon

And Jacobs even more due to movement

Seriously though....why in the foooooooooooooK won't GGG fight Cinnamon ? just why? forget the money bruv. Imo and many others, it's starting to look like GGG is ducking, weaving, back and front flipping as hard as he can to not fight Canelo. Why the hell won't he fight Cinnamon ?

 

[315MMAFighter]

Gennady v Canelo would do amazing in PPV #' s. So why the hell won't Gennady day a word about Carlo and fight him? it is mind boggling