Golovkin, Canelo, and The Lineal Middleweight Title

[nac386]

After the Chavez fight, Canelo will have had 2 fights in a row that haven't been MW fights.

I think if he doesn't defend against a top 5 MW after Chavez, then the MW title should be declared vacant. I do not agree with just declaring Golovkin the champ. That title needs to be won in the ring.

If Canelo does not fight one of the clear top middleweight contenders after Chavez (GGG and Jacobs are the only two options for that) then a GGG vs Jacobs rematch should start a new lineage.

 

[Seano]

If Canelo does not fight one of the clear top middleweight contenders after Chavez (GGG and Jacobs are the only two options for that) then a GGG vs Jacobs rematch should start a new lineage.

Thats what I said. I don't agree it necessarily has to be Golovkin but if he's not going to fight at MW against decent MWs, then the title needs to be vacant. I'd be OK with Canelo/Lemieux as a warm up for Canelo to fight Golovkin. I agree Canelo needs to fight Golovkin sometime over the next year, year and a half.

 

[nac386]

Thats what I said. I don't agree it necessarily has to be Golovkin but if he's not going to fight at MW against decent MWs, then the title needs to be vacant. I'd be OK with Canelo/Lemieux as a warm up for Canelo to fight Golovkin. I agree Canelo needs to fight Golovkin sometime over the next year, year and a half.

I was agreeing, and just adding that the new lineage should begin with a GGG vs Jacobs rematch (as opposed to some retroactive attempt to make the first fight a lineal match so that GGG can have the title). I'd be okay with a Canelo vs Lemieux fight as well, considering Lemieux's recent performances probably put him legitimately in the top 5. I actually don't think that would be that easy of a fight for Canelo. There is a big skill difference, but Lemieux has enough size and power to cause some interesting moments.

 

[Seano]

I was agreeing, and just adding that the new lineage should begin with a GGG vs Jacobs rematch (as opposed to some retroactive attempt to make the first fight a lineal match so that GGG can have the title). I'd be okay with a Canelo vs Lemieux fight as well, considering Lemieux's recent performances probably put him legitimately in the top 5. I actually don't think that would be that easy of a fight for Canelo. There is a big skill difference, but Lemieux has enough size and power to cause some interesting moments.

I think Canelo would knock him out. I think thats a bad fight for Lemieux. Canelo is too sneaky with those counters. I think it might take a round or two but Canelo would stop him. Canelo does well with guys who fight.

 

[nac386]

I think Canelo would knock him out. I think thats a bad fight for Lemieux. Canelo is too sneaky with those counters. I think it might take a round or two but Canelo would stop him. Canelo does well with guys who fight.

GGG batted him around pretty well for 8 rounds or something. I think Lemieux actually has a really solid chin. Canelo has knocked out some 154-pounders, but a big guy like Lemieux could be a tough guy to get out of there.

 

[Canelo]

Lemieux appears to have a granite chin, Golovkin hit him with everything but the kitchen sink and struggled to hurt him cleanly to the head.

I don't see Canelo knocking him down to the head or KO'ing him, but he'd definitely do some serious damage to the body. Another left hook to the body in the mid rounds I'd imagine.

At this point I think the Jacobs fight is the hardest fight for Canelo. This weekend showed a lot of vulnerabilites GGG has, particularly up close, and he's only going to get worse from this point on. Jacobs can do everything.

 

[nac386]

I don't see Canelo knocking him down to the head or KO'ing him, but he'd definitely do some serious damage to the body. Another left hook to the body in the mid rounds I'd imagine.

I agree that is how it would have to happen. That's actually how GGG finally got him out of there too, with a body shot.

 

[Canelo]

I agree that is how it would have to happen. That's actually how GGG finally got him out of there too, with a body shot.

Lemieux showed that his power is very legit at the weight, so we have to consider the possibility of him knocking out anyone seriously, but this should be the type of fight that makes Canelo look great again. He gets a lot of shit for being in 'boring' fights and not winning convincingly, but give him someone who comes at him and you are 100% guaranteed fireworks.

That's what makes the Chaves fight a spectacle, as you know regardless of the result, the fight will include action and violence. This is the kind of fight a matchmaker would put together for ratings.

 

[nac386]

Lemieux showed that his power is very legit at the weight, so we have to consider the possibility of him knocking out anyone seriously, but this should be the type of fight that makes Canelo look great again. He gets a lot of shit for being in 'boring' fights and not winning convincingly, but give him someone who comes at him and you are 100% guaranteed fireworks.

That's what makes the Chaves fight a spectacle, as you know regardless of the result, the fight will include action and violence. This is the kind of fight a matchmaker would put together for ratings.

I don't think the Chavez fight is any walk in the park for Canelo either. We got spoiled in some ways by Pacquiao and Mayweather defying size. They aren't typical though, because Mayweather is a defensive wiz with super long arms (nullying some of the size advantage his opponents have) and Pacquiao's quickness actually made him well-suited to fight big guys.

Canelo is not as well suited to fight people bigger than him, and neither are most boxers. Look at what happened when GGG fought a big guy in Jacobs. I favor Canelo to beat both Chavez and Lemieux, but this idea that his superior boxing ability will make those fights easy is not accurate, I don't think.

 

[Canelo]

I don't think the Chavez fight is any walk in the park for Canelo either. We got spoiled in some ways by Pacquiao and Mayweather defying size. They aren't typical though, because Mayweather is a defensive wiz with super long arms (nullying some of the size advantage his opponents have) and Pacquiao's quickness actually made him well-suited to fight big guys.

Canelo is not as well suited to fight people bigger than him, and neither are most boxers. Look at what happened when GGG fought a big guy in Jacobs. I favor Canelo to beat both Chavez and Lemieux, but this idea that his superior boxing ability will make those fights easy is not accurate, I don't think.

I agree on one hand, most fighters don't do well going against heavier guys, and that seems obvious. The exceptions are the likes of Pacquiao who like to exploit slow footwork and movement, which is why a fight like Margarito is not as much of a challenge as a quicker guy a similar size like Bradley.

For Canelo though, I do think he will benefit from fighting bigger guys like Lemieux. All of the struggles we have seen from Canelo thus far have come against, smaller, quicker guys. Lara and Floyd being the two obvious ones. Even Khan caused him troubles initially because of the speed and movement. His feet aren't very fast so when he's fighting someone with slow feet as well, the gap that was there when he tried to hit Floyd, Lara etc isn't there, and he tee's off much more comfortably.

 

[Shoemaker]

I agree on one hand, most fighters don't do well going against heavier guys, and that seems obvious. The exceptions are the likes of Pacquiao who like to exploit slow footwork and movement, which is why a fight like Margarito is not as much of a challenge as a quicker guy a similar size like Bradley.

For Canelo though, I do think he will benefit from fighting bigger guys like Lemieux. All of the struggles we have seen from Canelo thus far have come against, smaller, quicker guys. Lara and Floyd being the two obvious ones. Even Khan caused him troubles initially because of the speed and movement. His feet aren't very fast so when he's fighting someone with slow feet as well, the gap that was there when he tried to hit Floyd, Lara etc isn't there, and he tee's off much more comfortably.

I agree. I think Jacobs is a much bigger risk for Saul than Golovkin is. Danny doesn't fight the way Canelo wants his opponent to fight, and he's looked less than stellar against guys who can keep him at range.

 

[Canelo]

I agree. I think Jacobs is a much bigger risk for Saul than Golovkin is. Danny doesn't fight the way Canelo wants his opponent to fight, and he's looked less than stellar against guys who can keep him at range.

Danny seems to be able to do it all, and I agree that he's a bit of a nightmare for Canelo. He's quick and mobile enough to box at range and frustrate Saul, while also being able to close the range and mix it up in a fight fight, he can go from one to the other pretty seemlessly.

With that said, he does get hit a bit and isn't a natural pure boxer, so isn't going to shut anyone as skilled as Canelo in that regard, but combining that amateur pedigree and boxing ability with the aggressive, brawling style of his game is one of the hardest styles to beat. Think Ray Leonard with much less overall ability.

 

[Shoemaker]

Danny seems to be able to do it all, and I agree that he's a bit of a nightmare for Canelo. He's quick and mobile enough to box at range and frustrate Saul, while also being able to close the range and mix it up in a fight fight, he can go from one to the other pretty seemlessly.

With that said, he does get hit a bit and isn't a natural pure boxer, so isn't going to shut anyone as skilled as Canelo in that regard, but combining that amateur pedigree and boxing ability with the aggressive, brawling style of his game is one of the hardest styles to beat. Think Ray Leonard with much less overall ability.

That's not a horrible comparison, really. You see Jacobs do it all the time; he can box beautifully but every once in a while he wants to stand and trade and prove he can give it back just as hard. I was impressed he was able to do that a few times against Golovkin (I think it was the 11th round when GGG tagged him, and he stood his ground and came back with two big punches of his own). He's got dog in him.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Thats what I said. I don't agree it necessarily has to be Golovkin but if he's not going to fight at MW against decent MWs, then the title needs to be vacant. I'd be OK with Canelo/Lemieux as a warm up for Canelo to fight Golovkin. I agree Canelo needs to fight Golovkin sometime over the next year, year and a half.

I agree except for the timeline. That fight really should have already happened last year. Especially if GBP wants to claim he's the lineal champ. If they don't make the fight Sept. Or Dec. I think Canelo loses a lot of credibility. Sure back in the teens and 20's we had champs holding the title hostage but that hasn't been the case for a long time. A year is pretty standard for at least an interim champ or an outright stripping.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I think Canelo would knock him out. I think thats a bad fight for Lemieux. Canelo is too sneaky with those counters. I think it might take a round or two but Canelo would stop him. Canelo does well with guys who fight.

I agree, I think that would be another cherry pick for him.

 

[Seano]

I agree, I think that would be another cherry pick for him.

But against a legit top ranked MW who has highlight reel KO's recently. I think it makes a lot of sense.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Lemieux showed that his power is very legit at the weight, so we have to consider the possibility of him knocking out anyone seriously, but this should be the type of fight that makes Canelo look great again. He gets a lot of shit for being in 'boring' fights and not winning convincingly, but give him someone who comes at him and you are 100% guaranteed fireworks.

That's what makes the Chaves fight a spectacle, as you know regardless of the result, the fight will include action and violence. This is the kind of fight a matchmaker would put together for ratings.

I just hope Chavez is in shape and not drained making weight. By all accounts he's on target so we might have a good fight ahead of us. I don't think skill wise Chavez will keep up but we'll see what type of effect Canelo's punches will have on a full blown MW.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

But against a legit top ranked MW who has highlight reel KO's recently. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah I'd pay for that fight, and it would get him used to fighting MW's, but it wouldn't do much for his claim to the title. I think he needs to fight GGG this year. Maybe Saunders or Lemieux first but waiting another year for the GGG fight just seems unreasonable to me.

 

[nac386]

I agree on one hand, most fighters don't do well going against heavier guys, and that seems obvious. The exceptions are the likes of Pacquiao who like to exploit slow footwork and movement, which is why a fight like Margarito is not as much of a challenge as a quicker guy a similar size like Bradley.

For Canelo though, I do think he will benefit from fighting bigger guys like Lemieux. All of the struggles we have seen from Canelo thus far have come against, smaller, quicker guys. Lara and Floyd being the two obvious ones. Even Khan caused him troubles initially because of the speed and movement. His feet aren't very fast so when he's fighting someone with slow feet as well, the gap that was there when he tried to hit Floyd, Lara etc isn't there, and he tee's off much more comfortably.

I understand what you are saying. But at the same time, Canelo has gotten by those smaller guys like Lara and Khan (in part) by having superior size and fire power. Lara had no interest in absorbing any punishment from Canelo, and that is a big reason why Canelo was able to outpoint him. Lara was on his horse the entire fight. Khan physically couldn't take the punishment, which is why he did the chicken dance every time he got hit and eventually got knocked out.

A guy like Liam Smith, who is small and relatively easy to hit was able to have some limited success, and last quite a while with Canelo. Eventually he just couldn't take the punishment. But if Liam Smith was a natural middleweight, that's not such an easy fight. I saw an interview the other day where Liam Smith said that he thought he was the same size as Canelo at the weigh in, but when they stepped in the ring he looked huge.

Canelo cannot take shots from Jacobs, GGG, and Lemieux the way he took shots from Kirkland, Cotto, Lara, Smith, etc. These are much bigger men he's fighting, and they are also p4p some of the harder punchers around. Their offense will pose a real risk to him, unlike anything he's really dealt with so far.

Canelo's best attribute at middleweight may end up being his defense, honestly. He's a very good defensive fighter, probably the best in the middleweight division (when he fights there). He's not going to blow through middleweights like he did Kirkland, Khan, and Smith.

 

[nastyleft]

Meaning that history is filled with fighters who maintained their lineal claims despite them being inactive champions by either not competing in the ring at all for an extended period of time (multiple years in a lot of cases) or by concentrating on other divisions. Canelo just won the lineal MW claim 16 months ago and has participated in a MW fight since then against Khan not even a year ago.

Great point! Everyone wants to focus on all the ancillary BS about Khan coming up, glass chin etc etc. But the fact is Canelo DID defend his Lineal MW title less than 12 months ago...