Goju-Ryu & Kyokushin Karate

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by likkuid, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    Hey, this is going to sound weird - I know, but I need help so that's why I'm posting lol.

    I want to take Kyokushin Karate, but my dad keeps emphasizing I take his style (Goju-Ryu). Goju-Ryu has NO-CONTACT sparring (tournaments have no contact either, apparently) and this is not what I want. I'd like to take Kyokushin because I prefer the style much more than Goju-Ryu..plus you can spar FULL-CONTACT (what I want). My dad thinks its beneficial to spar NO-CONTACT because you can learn control (kick someone max. velocity but stop inch away from their face). I rather be able to learn how to take hits so you can actually stand up in a fight, etc..plus it seems boring to me NO-CONTACT, you can't really test certain skills I'd think (like arial kicks).

    Anyways, I want to try and get my parents [I'm 16] to allow me to take Kyokushin, because I think once they find out it's full contact they'll say no (they're fully against Muay Thai [what I take now] and one of those reasons is because you spar..with padding..so just imagine Kyokushin lol).

    Anyways, if possible, it would be really helpful to me if you pointed out differences between Kyokushin and Goju-Ryu. I searched both on Wikipedia and read all of the stuff, but that didn't help me much. I'm aware Kyokushin is based on Shotokan and Goju-Ryu, but I want more info than that to 'sell' my parents. I'd also like to know for myself, as well (just in case this Kyokushin place I'm checking out has poor teaching).

    So..what are the differences between the two? What are the pros and cons (comparatively)? I understand that most of you think Kyokushin is better than Goju-Ryu..but why? I'd like to know, please give full explanations and support [if possible]. If you don't want to, you don't need to type out a long post, any..any help would be much appreciated and valued.

    Thanks,
    Kyle

    EDIT: Wow, I'm watching Goju-Ryu tournament vids..after about one or two moves the match is stopped and a winner is declared. Kyokushin goes the whole distance!
     
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  2. Jake Martin Amateur Fighter

    Jake Martin
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    That's because most Karate styles participate in point sparring tournaments. Now a-days they're so watered down and PC that you can't even hit to the "face" (open area in headgear) without getting called on a foul. You throw a strike, pulling it at the last second for only light or no contact and get a "point". Typically you go for 2-3 minutes or until a set number of points is reached.

    After every strike, the match is stopped and point awarded. Then you resume. It's full of bias and often up to the judge's personal preference who gets the point. It's sad that it has fallen so far since the 70s and 80s, when there was much more contact and a much bigger tournament scene. Think of it as a game of tag, more than a fighting competition.

    However, as a Shotokan stylist (probably the MOST "point sparring" karate style there is) who trains for muay thai rules, let me say that it's fairly easy to integrate the strikes into your standup game. However I would probably kill myself if I was forced to train in a TMA karate school that focused on point sparring and "self defense" techniques, because while it is easy to adapt to a full contact ruleset, if you go straight "from the book" so to speak a lot of the techniques are relatively weak and pointless.

    You might enjoy it, but I would check out the Kyokushin school. Don't call it Kyokushin, just say it's another Karate school that you like. If your dad doesn't already know what Kyokushin is, then why make it any easier for him to find out if you're going to get shot down?

    But the bruises and injuries you'll come home with will make it hard to hide in the end. Just my two cents.

    edit: If Goju-Ryu is like traditional Shotokan, which I believe it is, expect a lot of linear movements, and deep stances. The strikes are powerful, but the kata and bunkai will make you scratch your head a lot of the time.
     
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  3. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    I already told them (stupid-me) that Kyokushin is more contact, lots of sparring and it incorporates some kickboxing. Don't know wtf I told them that, but actually don't think they care much, now - because my dad understands it's based off Goju-Ryu.

    I called the two KK places near me up and only got a response from one. The guy said they train full-contact and equipment is only allowed for students ages 12 and under. He's the Japan rep for KK in Ontario (or Canada was it, whatever) and says, opposed to other KK schools, his teaching is much more traditional and true to the Kyokushin style. He also mentioned we learn the bo-staff later on LOL. Karate means 'empty hand', but hell, I'd love to learn the staff - I've always loved Donatello! I also asked him how teaching all level students in one class works. He said they all do basic techniques for warm up and then you break up into your levels accordingly (small groups) - sounds like this would work, let's hope! Only downside to THIS KK gym is that I can only go to 2 out of the 3 classes per week - for a total of 3 hours/week. I'll try and take another martial art at the same time, such as Judo or JuJitsu to fill in the extra days. I've been told Judo complements KK greatly.

    Hopefully I won't break anything too soon, I know it's bound to happen but hopefully that won't happen much - I want to keep my ribs in tact ;) He says you start Kumite (full contact sparring) 2-3 weeks after joining if you show promise in your technique.

    BUT ANYWAYS, yes, help appreciated people =)
     
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  4. aaron_mag Purple Belt

    aaron_mag
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    I'd say Shoto's post was pretty much right on. But I'd focus on the above here. It can be integrated in and normal class sparring is typically continuous with no stopping to acknowledge points. Plus as you get more advanced you get to know your training partners and the rule starts to become, "If I didn't feel it, it isn't a point." ;)


    Plus many of the full contact fighters back in the day (Wallace, Norris) used to say that those who started in non-contact became better full-contact fighters because they had better technique.

    KK is a great style, but I think you'd learn from Goju Ryu as well and it is better to do SOMETHING than nothing and just talk about what you want to train in. From what I understand KK guys usually have a background in something else anyway.

    I knew a guy in college who trained Shotokan and it was almost exactly the same training as my own (ITF TKD). And the guy was very good and skilled (from Sweden).

    I've done MT as well and most of the skills are directly transferable. Just make sure you work the heavy bag. That is EXTREMELY important. Most karate guys don't do enough of that.
     
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  5. Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

    Jimmy Cerra
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    I went to a Shotokan Club meeting once. We mostly worked on katas. Midway through the class, the instructor was talking about how his teacher could move people with his mind. I never had a high opinion of Shotokan afterward. Maybe it was a poor karate club. I don't know... but that first impression was not favorable.
     
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  6. aaron_mag Purple Belt

    aaron_mag
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    Ah yes. The old star wars fanatic meets karate club.

    I've met more than my share of guys like that myself (in many different TMAs). I've even had students that have taken up kung fu and come back and say, "I can now direct the increase blood flow in my body using ki and focus ki in my palms." That is why I left. You never had any focus on INTERNAL martial arts.

    They can never throw those fireballs from the streetfighter games or have flame come out of their fist when they do the rising dragon uppercut. Now that would be useful!!! :icon_chee

    The weirdest one was I had a guy claim that the masters back in china could jump so high they could land on top of basketball hoops. To which I couldn't resist saying, "Wow. Why are they wasting their time doing martial arts when they could be schooling Jordan on the court..."

    The problem with guys like those is that they give all of us a bad name. I'm into the athletic aspect. I played many sports growing up (football, lacrosse, track, etc) and I like sweating and working out. I'm not into powers of the mind BS.

    On a side note, to the thread poster, I know it is hard to see things from your parents point of view. I've had friends who couldn't play football because their fathers, who had been stars in their day, had forbidden them to play. The reason was because their knees were messed up from playing and they didn't want their sons to suffer the same fate. Heck I even know a judo guy (who owns his own school back in Europe) who forced his daughter to quit after her second shoulder surgery. He just didn't want her risking her body anymore.

    They do mean well. And as a parent I can now understand this part!!!

    :)
     
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  7. loui_ludwig Green Belt

    loui_ludwig
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    Since the topic is about kaarate and starting a diffirent thread, are there any MMA fighters that trains in Kyokushin?
     
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  8. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    Yeh:

    "We have Bas rutten (who credits kyokushin as his base in standup)
    Georges St. Pierre -kyokushin as standup.
    Assuerio Silva -seiwakai
    Shonie Carter -shidokan
    Minoki Ichihara daido juku (one fight in ufc- lost vs Royce Gracie)
    Gerard Gordeau -kyokushin/world Oyama karate (2nd place in ufc1, although he was incorrectly labeled as a savate fighter, not kyokushin.)"

    and there's lots more I don't know of/can't remember.


    -- mag, id like to spend a few days talking/researching the art before i commit to training in it years on end lol.

    -- about what chuck norris said about non-contact fighters developing better technique..i can understand this as u learn control but i've heard many people say that the moves you spar with may look effective but in a real-life situation are not near as affective as assumed. so basically u could be learning all this flashy BS that does nothing.. i'm sure this is the case in certain schools, especially TKD from what i've learend.

    and mag, what's itf tkd?
     
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  9. vicious Orange Belt

    vicious
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    I am not sure if it differs between gyms but my friend did Goju-Ryu for awhile and they did full contact sparring often. A lot of times the higher belts went against the lower ones (with some rules as to what the higher belts could and couldn't do). My friend got cracked in the head pretty good a couple of times.
     
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  10. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    they only did non-contact at my dads dojo (which he says was an amazing dojo). but the high levels also fought low levels with the same 'rules' ur speaking of..basically they'd just take it easy on them. when my dad was yellow belt he was fighting a 2nd degree black belt in sparring and my dad was beating him, so the 2nd deg. bb kicked him full-contact like a whiny byatch nd broke my dads ribs.

    my dad broke a lot of stuff, actually..he said even with no-contact there was always accidents. people u were sparring with would get ticked and hit u for real or peoples control would slip :\

    I wonder how banged up ill get from kyokushin though....i wonder if u really fight as hard as u can when its full contact kumite..wonder if there's any restraint. oh well, hopefully i just wont break my ribs lol
     
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  11. b_ la reina del iwflt

    b_
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    best advice yet.
     
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  12. aaron_mag Purple Belt

    aaron_mag
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    ITF = International Taekwon-do Federation. This is versus the World Taekwon-do Federation which is olympic TKD and has ended up being much more popular.

    The ITF style is basically karate with more jumping. Like I said I knew a shotokan guy in college and our techniques were basically the same.

    There is definite truth that somethings don't transfer over directly into full contact. It does take some adjustment. And many people who start working the heavy bag find out that it is exhausting to kick something repeatedly with all your force.

    The main problem with karate based styles is not the traditional standup. I did Muay Thai and people did not like eating my lowkicks (especially my sidekick to the thai). The main problem with karate based styles is the total lack of ground training. I've done MMA as well and I had absolutely no idea what to do on the ground. Got taken down, tapped out, RNCed, etc, etc.

    But that can be solved with some cross training. :)
     
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  13. KravMachado Guest

    KravMachado


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

    We have two bullshit schools like that in STockton. One is this Kung Fu school. ACtually it's more like a cult. THey say they can meditate so hard that they can "float" in mid-air. They're so fuckin stupid, they sit outside their parking lot with their students in the 109 degree stockton heat and bounce themselves off the ground like idiots and say "see we're floating!"

    Then there's this other school that preaches that their style of Kung Fu is "banned" in the UFC because they have death blow moves and their "energy" is too much for the UFC.

    All a lot of horse-shit. I can't believe people still buy into that and even enroll in those places. But they do good business, so I guess there are more mentally unstable people than I thought!:icon_chee
     
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  14. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    Cults always get good business, what do you expect :p

    And heavybag..frick I've been wanting one of those for a while now - parents won't allow it 'cause it takes too much room -_-

    I'll have to find SOMETHING to kick, and I don't have a little brother, so I'm lost with that. My dad said he'd hold the kick pads if I got them though - so guess that's better than nothing ;)
     
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  15. Gorgar Yellow Belt

    Gorgar
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    Dont worry about taking kyokushin at your age, I started at 14 and I havent got an injure. Now I am 18 and train BJJ after 1 year out of training due to school.
     
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  16. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    guess it depends on who ur sparring with (if they're an idiot) and the level of aggressivness allowed. the no hands/elbows to the face help as well, ahaha. i dont mind injuries, as long as they're not like breakage or somehting that cripples me to train or somethin.
     
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  17. triplex429 Banned

    triplex429
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    karate - snapping kicks, side kicks and spinning back kick

    MT - powerful roundhouse kicks/teep kick
     
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  18. likkuid Brown Belt

    likkuid
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    lol I know what MT is, this is about diffs in Goju-Ryu style Karate and Kyokushin style Karate. Thanks for trying to help, anyways - and wicked display pic hahaha.
     
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  19. feels Green Belt

    feels
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    Good Kyokushin schools should teach their students how to control their power. It's a tendency for people, who just start off sparring, to go crazy on each other. And that usually leads to an early injury. Power control comes with experience. If you don't get to make contact with someone in Goju Ryu, then how are you suppose to know how much power to use in a live combative situation? If you use your full power and miss, it leads to open opportunities for your opponent to counter. During technique exercises, we hardly use any power in our strikes, but we still maintain speed and accuracy.

    Goju Ryu and Kyokushin Karate are both good styles to start off with. You don't need to tell your dad that you think Kyokushin is better than Goju Ryu. Save some face. Just tell your dad that you gave it some good thought and that you just prefer to take Kyokushin because you like the opportunity of doing hard-contact sparring. Hopefully, if he can see your passion in this matter, he'll understand.
     
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  20. Jake Martin Amateur Fighter

    Jake Martin
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    You don't think side kicks and spinning back kicks are powerful? Not to pull this thread too far off-topic, but again it is all about cross-training, picking the techniques that you like and keeping them as your own, ditching the rest. Plus, once you have a base with a style it's pretty easy to pick up the nuances of the other style's techniques with time and a heavybag (ie: snapping kicks --> full hip turn roundkicks).

    If I misunderstood and this wasn't an attempt to say that Karate=weak, Muay Thai= the best then I apologize but hopefully you can understand why I would think that, especially given the board we're posting on :)

    To the OP: Have you checked out a KK dojo yet, or the Goju-Ryu one?
     
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