Going To Prison Over Debt.

[Long Dark Blues]

I voted no.

But I'm on the fence, is the debt still outstanding and therefore still owed after time served?

If the state is going to use law enforcement and the courts as debt collection, or otherwise serve time, does that effectively dismantle the collections industry?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Yeah, lenders would fall under private non-human entity (unless you're just like lending money to friends and family).

Debts to private citizens could involve personal injury claims, child support payments, auto collision liability, and things of that nature.

That sounds reasonable. Not sure I'd even call those people debtors though. Yeah, they owe money. But it's not because someone loaned it to them. Regardless of the definition, there's a pretty clear difference here than if they were borrowers.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Sure,

Debt to business entity --> cannot be jailed
Debt to government agency --> cannot be jailed

Debt to private citizen --> can be jailed, subject to affirmative defense for indigence

Roughly, that is how I would ideally parcel out the subject. Like I said, I'd also take into consideration financial versus non-financial injury in the private citizens case as well.

Including tax evasion?

 

[snakedafunky]

No, it should be up to the lender to make sure there is collateral to take if the person can't pay the debt.
Most of those industries get super rich by giving out easy credit to questionable canditates.
That should probably be illegal anyway.

 

[Trotsky]

That sounds reasonable. Not sure I'd even call those people debtors though. Yeah, they owe money. But it's not because someone loaned it to them. Regardless of the definition, there's a pretty clear difference here than if they were borrowers.

Oh, okay, yeah I was coming from the place of a broader definition.

I 100% oppose detention for failing to pay back loans. That risk is already figured into the terms, as you said, and lenders have other, more productive legal tools at their disposal (such as wage garnishing) in extreme cases.

Including tax evasion?

No, not including tax evasion.

I very, very much support stiff penalties or tax evasion. Good catch.

 

[12ga.]

well, i don't see how not paying back a debt isn't considered stealing. we do arrest people for stealing, right? i think if someone is making an honest effort to pay a debt back, then of course they don't go to jail. but if you don't have a job and have no way to pay back a debt, surely there has to be a punishment for it. what other punishment can you levy upon someone who can't pay back something they took? it may sound harsh, but i don't see any other punishment to deter this behavior than prison time. sorry if that sounds harsh, but what other option is there?

How is it not fraud when colleges sell kids on great employment post college and about half leave disappointed? What I am trying to say is life doesn't go as planned for either side. There are medical issues, macro economic forces, discrimination and plain ole not being up to snuff to meet your obligations. That why banks charge intrest for loans too account for those who fall through the gap. Thats enough.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Depends on the circumstances. If its C 2 B -- then the business takes the risks (they have write off policies for this very reason) and the consumer takes the hit on their credit (thats the point of it). However, if the courts settle on the matter, and the person avoids payment, then that's different.

 

[IIIIIIII]

How is it not fraud when colleges sell kids on great employment post college and about half leave disappointed? What I am trying to say is life doesn't go as planned for either side. There are medical issues, macro economic forces, discrimination and plain ole not being up to snuff to meet your obligations. That why banks charge intrest for loans too account for those who fall through the gap. Thats enough.

you knowingly take out a loan, and you know you are expected to pay back what you borrowed. that's as plain as can be. if you read my other post, i agreed with some type of community service to pay back what you owe. i don't like seeing good people going to jail over not being able to pay back a debt. and i agree that it's rough for kids nowadays, and it's fucked up what colleges sell kids. but still, you agree to pay back something you were given. that's as clear as it can get.

 

[44nutman]

IF they could only file bankruptcy 4 times like the Orange Asshole.

 

[j123]

Doesn't this kinda happen if you fail to make child support payments? Toss you in the big house?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

you knowingly take out a loan, and you know you are expected to pay back what you borrowed. that's as plain as can be.

And any lender knows there's risk of default but assumes that risk for the potential profit. So while any one individual is expected to pay off the loan, it's expected that out of all of them some won't.

 

[12ga.]

you knowingly take out a loan, and you know you are expected to pay back what you borrowed. that's as plain as can be. if you read my other post, i agreed with some type of community service to pay back what you owe. i don't like seeing good people going to jail over not being able to pay back a debt. and i agree that it's rough for kids nowadays, and it's fucked up what colleges sell kids. but still, you agree to pay back something you were given. that's as clear as it can get.

No what's clear is the concept of debt forgiveness is even the in Constitution (art 1 sec 8) let alone 200+ years of bankruptcy and case law and only recently are they throwing people even kids in debtor prisons.

It's an abomination IMO.

 

[12ga.]

IF they could only file bankruptcy 4 times like the Orange Asshole.

Republicans are doing their best effort so only rich people like trump can declare bankruptcy. In my day you could on Student loans which billionaires don't have. No more. GWB changed that. There are dozens of other examples.

 

[IIIIIIII]

And any lender knows there's risk of default but assumes that risk for the potential profit. So while any one individual is expected to pay off the loan, it's expected that out of all of them some won't.

ok. so which people get to not pay off their loans? if you tell the public that you don't necessarily have to pay off your loan, why wouldn't everyone do that? if everyone knows that, no one would ever choose to pay off their loan. it's like insurance. insurance works because you pay a monthly fee in the chance that you have a medical crisis, and can take money from the majority pot to pay it off. if everyone decides to take out their lump sum all at once, there is none left for those who truly do have a medical crisis.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

ok. so which people get to not pay off their loans? if you tell the public that you don't necessarily have to pay off your loan, why wouldn't everyone do that? if everyone did that, no one would ever choose to pay off their loan. it's like insurance. insurance works because you pay a monthly fee in the chance that you have a medical crisis, and can take money from the majority pot to pay it off. if everyone decides to take out their lump sum all at once, there is none left for those who truly do have a medical crisis.

Maybe it's a combination of most people having some honor and integrity coupled with wanting to be able to get more loans in the future. I've never once heard anyone say they pay their loans out of fear of going to jail. You?

 

[12ga.]

ok. so which people get to not pay off their loans? if you tell the public that you don't necessarily have to pay off your loan, why wouldn't everyone do that? if everyone knows that, no one would ever choose to pay off their loan. it's like insurance. insurance works because you pay a monthly fee in the chance that you have a medical crisis, and can take money from the majority pot to pay it off. if everyone decides to take out their lump sum all at once, there is none left for those who truly do have a medical crisis.

Everyone always known you don't have to pay but most people don't want that to be their last loan and credit screwed up so they can't even rent an apartment or apply for certain jobs so they do pay it. That was enough for almost eternity of US history.

This neo-feudal idea of debtor prisons not to mention making it harder for bankruptcy is just pure greed by banks and for profit prisons to fill beds. It's disgusting.

 

[IIIIIIII]

Maybe it's a combination of most people having some honor and integrity coupled with wanting to be able to get more loans in the future. I've never once heard anyone say they pay their loans out of fear of going to jail. You?

well, that's really my main point. there needs to be consequences in order to keep people honest about the fact that they were given money, and that in good conscience they are making an effort to pay it back. going to prison is something i would hate to see. that's why working in some way to pay it back, if it can't be done monetarily, seems to be a decent consequence. i mean we all work to make money anyway, right? it wouldn't be any different to what we do on a daily basis. that seems reasonable to me. the problem i see, is when people feel entitled to not pay something back, simply because their dreams didn't come to fruition. don't screw over others because your expectations were not met, and as a result, are not able to pay back what you borrowed.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

well, that's really my main point. there needs to be consequences in order to keep people honest about the fact that they were given money, and that in good conscience they are making an effort to pay it back. going to prison is something i would hate to see. that's why working in some way to pay it back, if it can't be done monetarily, seems to be a decent consequence. i mean we all work to make money anyway, right? it wouldn't be any different to what we do on a daily basis. that seems reasonable to me. the problem i see, is when people feel entitled to not pay something back, simply because their dreams didn't come to fruition. don't screw over others because your expectations were not met, and as a result, are not able to pay back what you borrowed.

I hear you.

The post right above yours is a good one. And in the internet age it's becoming impossible to outrun past indiscretions.

 

[IIIIIIII]

Everyone always known you don't have to pay but most people don't want that to be their last loan and credit screwed up so they can't even rent an apartment or apply for certain jobs so they do pay it. That was enough for almost eternity of US history.

This neo-feudal idea of debtor prisons not to mention making it harder for bankruptcy is just pure greed by banks and for profit prisons to fill beds. It's disgusting.

oh, i totally agree. it used to be that screwing up your credit, and future loans and everything else that goes along with it, was punishment-enough. but now, younger kids don't seem to care about those consequences anymore, and then you have bernie sanders telling kids that education should be free for votes. we have to be real with our young people, and they can't simply demand something. nothing in life is free. education isn't free. everything comes at a cost. the system is corrupt, and it needs to be fixed.

 

[12ga.]

oh, i totally agree. it used to be that screwing up your credit, and future loans and everything else that goes along with it, was punishment-enough. but now, younger kids don't seem to care about those consequences anymore, and then you have bernie sanders telling kids that education should be free for votes. we have to be real with our young people, and they can't simply demand something. nothing in life is free. education isn't free. everything comes at a cost. the system is corrupt, and it needs to be fixed.

It's corrupt alright. We live in a oligarchy been proven.
http://www.businessinsider.com/major-study-finds-that-the-us-is-an-oligarchy-2014-4

Thats why the for profit prison system exists now and only the wealthy can declare bankruptcy. Politicians have been bought off.

We need more Bernies to correct that imbalance. Today Eisenhower would be a left wing radical.