Going from gi to no-gi - teething issues | Page 3

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Nik123, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Most no gi specialists don't enter gi comps. This is true.

    But I do think that many no gi specialists train in the gi. In fact I think most of the best ones do.

    There are very few high level no gi grapplers that either didn't train in the gi for a long time or don't do a pretty decent mix of both.

    I have posted a shit load about Gordon Ryan today but honestly he's one of the only ones that comes to mind. He and Dean Lister are the only guys I know of to win ADCC with such a small amount of gi training compared to their no gi training. Obviously there's Mark Kerr but he was a straight wrestler and not a jiu-jitsu guy.

    When I think of the my favorite no gi guys ever I think of Marcelo, Braulio, Galvao, Jacare, Rafa, Cobrinha, Gordon, Pena, Lovato Jr, Keenan, Tonon, Cooper, Glover, JT...most of these guys do/did both gi and no gi training.

    Jake Shields is probably the most successful jiu-jitsu guy that has done almost no training in the gi.
     
    #41
    Bubblun likes this.
  2. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Does Edwin Najmi still post here?

    I swear the only no-gi I have ever seen him do was right before this past ADCC and he straight up darce choked Thiago Abreu in like 2 minutes, then rear naked choked Davi Ramos who was the reigning ADCC champ at that weight.

    I watch a lot of Najmi's matches too. So I may have missed some nogi comps but I'd bet that he's done a heavy majority gi training and he already looks like he could be an elite no-gi guy. I don't know how his leg lock game is, but if he were to really dive into the modern leg lock game (if only to learn the defense) then I would bet on him to at least make the finals of ADCC in 2019 if not win the whole thing.

    I guess my point is some games transfer better than others. I think Najmi's game translates very well to no-gi. I guess in theory you could flip that: a strict no-gi guy could have a game that translates very well to to both. I don't know if he chose to do his game that way or if it was happenstance.

    But anyways I think it's easier to take away variables than it is to add them. By taking the gi off you are adding some variables, but you're losing way more overall. By putting on the gi you are losing a couple of variables, but adding a ton more overall.

    If you're going gi to no-gi there's a steep ass learning curve and you have got to start paying more attention to keeping your feet and your neck safe in transitions. But going from no-gi to gi is just adding a fuck ton of other variables that are super foreign to you.
     
    #42
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Bubblun and BJJ_Rage like this.
  3. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Finally getting to this. Sorry. A big part of no-gi is using submission threats to get position and using submissions like grips. You like the kimura and the guillotine. Those are two of the best for that. So say you're knee slicing and they turn in. Go ahead and wrap up the guillotine. This makes them split their focus between the pass and the choke, and you can more easily get either, or both.

    Same thing with the kimura grip. They turn in and you lock that kimura grip. In no-gi the kimura is maybe the best grip because of the lack of collars. That grip can pin that whole corner of their body in place as you move freely. So you can pass, do a literal roll and come on top in north south with your kimura grip, or roll and let them turn in towards you so you can take the back or an armbar.

    But a big thing in no-gi is moving and sort of funneling people into your danger zones. So instead of trying to really hold someone down, let them move a little bit. Let them come up and catch their head or their arm when they do.

    That might sound too obvious but does that help at all?

    Here are 5 kimura trap and guillotine trap videos.

    Notice how all he needs is a kimura grip and it's basically over after that?


    This time there's not a full somersault with the kimura but it's still enough to get the control to take the back. And he doesn't dive for the kimura grip. It just comes from a deep underhook. And underhooks are almost always a good idea in no-gi.


    Same here. And notice how long he holds the grip and takes his time to get the armbar eventually?


    Here Marcelo Garcia is trapped in half guard but he goes ahead and gets the guillotine grip. This helps control their posture so he can free his leg and then he's already got the sub.



    Ryan Hall uses a similar guillotine/vice grip style head wrap to force the guard player to release his leg and gets him the darce choke


    Do these videos help?
     
    #43
    Nik123 and Bubblun like this.
  4. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    Already did. Did not get wrecked. I don't think you know what an oxymoron is. But anyhow, common sense supports my opinion just fine. If you have a competent base in no gi grappling, you should not have much difficulty in the gi. The fundamentals are still there. The problem is that there isn't enough data because not too many guys spend 5 years+ training no gi before they train gi. It's the other way around. You have guys with gi fundamentals adapting to no gi. You don't see too many guys with no gi fundamentals adapting to the gi. Because of the minimal data, my experience is quite valid.

    Also the logic of the collar....I mean, how do you not see it? Imagine grappling with a guy that has a rope around the back of his neck and you can use it to choke him at any time. That's basically what the gi is. It's a weapon. I adapted to collar chokes just fine. I adapted to grip fighting just fine. And my no gi game translated just fine. Not sure why that's difficult for you to comprehend.
     
    #44
    Bluesbreaker likes this.
  5. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    Those are all gi guys though. Also, isn't Najmi a Marcelo guy? Marcelo guys are basically the ultimate gi/no gi hybrids. That's where I get most of my inspiration from.
     
    #45
  6. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Wait, what? I'm confused.

    I think you're arguing a point I never really made. What is it you think I was saying? What are you trying to say? I'm not trying to be rude. Just curious.

    To answer your question. Edwin Najmi is a black belt under Romulo Barral. I've followed him as a competitor since purple belt and I've only seen him do on no-gi tournament (maybe 2.5 months ago?)

    I have no idea about Thiago Abreu. I have only seen him compete no-gi. But I haven't seen him compete very much.

    I've seen Davi Ramos compete a lot both in and out of the gi, and he won ADCC 2015 at his weight.
     
    #46
    dmwalking likes this.
  7. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Interesting. I did no-gi for 2 years before I ever did gi and I like no-gi more than gi. I try to mostly do no-gi but my academy's schedule forces me to do about 50/50 right now.

    I still haven't adapted to gi chokes very much. I basically use the same game gi as no-gi. So when I get the back from example I go seatbelt grip and looks for rear naked chokes or kimura grips to armbars. I hit the occasional bow and arrow choke but that's the only collar choke I ever get.

    I also think I'm probably in the minority. Most people tell me they think collar chokes are easier in the gi than RNCs.
     
    #47
  8. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    17,338
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    Because the problem when rolling gi is not your offense is your defense. Rolling no gi has much more freedom, with gi gi? A guy with a death grip is going to make your life miserable

    also, the whole passing defending game... with a gi on, the pressure a person can translate is way way more, pressuring and twisting your body is much easier in the gi, and is much much more worse for the person on bottom.

    So really, do be silly and say things you are saying basing your opinion in your narrow experience. Its not a different art, you can certainly cross over most of your skills, but is not easier to roll in the gi if you are a no gi guy, that is just not true, or simple shows that the level of people youve been going against in the gi isnt very high.
     
    #48
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
    TheGZA and mataleaos like this.
  9. Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

    Nnedd
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2007
    Messages:
    37,286
    Likes Received:
    751
    Train more no-gi
     
    #49
    mataleaos likes this.
  10. kpoz12 The No Life King

    kpoz12
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,907
    Likes Received:
    612
    Location:
    Kimura, BC
    jjust heelhook ppl and just bleed
     
    #50
    mataleaos likes this.
  11. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    700
    Honestly the gi is harder on my body. People are able to really use the clothing to twist your spine and hold it for extended periods. A strong leg drag or leg weave in the gi when they just want to hold you there and consolidate position? Or stack pass you and really keep you from conceding or turtling?Not to mention to strain on your hands and fingers from gripping.

    I've been doing more no-gi recently simply because I'm getting older and there's less strain on my body.
     
    #51
    BJJ_Rage and TheGZA like this.
  12. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    17,338
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    exactly what I meant.

    I rolled with rodrigo fajardo last year, with the gi, when he passed, mother of god, dude manipulates your body in a horrible way, getting twisted is a horrible sensation, you just want him to pass...

    is quite obvious that dmwalking hasnt go against a really good gi grappler.
     
    #52
    mataleaos likes this.
  13. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    This is based on your experience. Gi guys play a much more open game with much more distance. My no gi foundation is old school 10th planet where everything was tight and clinched. From my experience, I had less space to move in no gi than in the gi. With the gi, instead of controlling my whole upper body, all they controlled was my clothing. I was able to move a lot more freely. Consider the difference between a gator wrestler who sits on the gator and shuts their mouth vs animal control who puts the noose around their neck. The gator moves way more freely in the noose than he does against the gator wrestler who pins them down. That's my experience.

    Say what you will, but it doesn't negate my experience that the gi is easier. I'm not saying it's easier for everyone. I'm saying it was easier for me. Still is. Sorry if this upsets you.
     
    #53
  14. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    I have no preference anymore. My base is no gi. But I like them both. Most of my game is no gi based. In the gi, I just use grips to assist in my usual game. So instead of an armdrag against a slippery triceps, I get to armdrag with a handful of sleeve. Way easier because if I fail, I can still hold them in place and work my back take. When I get the back I still seat belt because it's the best control. But it's soooooo much easier to just grab a thin collar and get it under the chin and strangle someone than it is to fight to get a thick arm under the chin. I don't have to sit up and grab behind the neck to break posture. I can just grab the collar. X guard is easier because I can grab the pants. Going for the truck is easier because I can grab the belt for control. My game is made much easier with the assistance of clothing.
     
    #54
    mataleaos likes this.
  15. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    17,338
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    The day you roll with a multiple time bb champ in the gi you will say, holy shit, so this is what rage and mataleos were talking about, believe me, you will.

    Look...what your saying is this, by your logic, any top level no gi guy should just cross over to any gi tournament and win, since going no gi to gi under your logic is easier due to having cloth to grab on. Is this or your a phenom that the rule only applies to you.

    And all this is based on your experience on rolling with white blues and purples...

    Sounds quite silly doesn't it?
     
    #55
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  16. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    LMAO dude you are stubborn as hell and dense as a mf'er. EVERYTHING IS HARDER AGAINST A TOP LEVEL GRAPPLER! haahahah But when dealing with the average purple and below, it's business as usual.

    If I say I can outrun the average man, it's irrelevant to say "well you can't out run Usain Bolt." Dummy. LMAO.
     
    #56
  17. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    17,338
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    what belt are you by the way?

    if you are a black belt, then you shoudlnt be comparing yourself to a blue or purple.

    again, your opinion is based in your minial experience on the gi. Youve been trying to rationalized something that is silly.

    if I say, hey Im better at gi than no gi, because theres collars to grab on, (if you say its easier for you to roll in the gi, then you shoudl be better at than no gi) but I dont train gi...its nothing but silly.

    if you are a no gi purple, and you show up at a gi purple tournament, you are getting wrecked.

    if you are a black belt in the 10th system, and you are pretty good, you could show up to a worlds purple gi and you will get wrecked, period.

    if you show up to a gi white belt division, your are going to wreck guys... IS THS an indication that the transition from no gi to gi is easier than gi to no gi? its silly.

    Al iaquinta, a pro UFC fighter whos been top for quite some time got beaten in a local tournament by a local blue belt, Unless you think you could take al in a no gi competition, thats a fair analogy.

    your logic is silly, period.

    and this is coming from a 99% no gi guy, but I did my fair share of 5 years of mostly gi training.
     
    #57
  18. dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    dmwalking
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    6,513
    Likes Received:
    1,618
    Guy, don't use words you don't know how to spell. LOL. I'm guessing you mean menial. And I wouldn't consider my experience menial since I've been grappling for years. But maybe I can help you understand something that you seem to be missing. I....meaning me.....I find the gi to be easier. I'm not saying that everyone should feel the same way. I'm saying that my style translated just fine to the gi. That's not silly. Your insistence on reducing my opinion because you disagree is silly. It's an opinion guy. We're not talking facts.

    I grapple in both. I'm equal in both. My base is old school 10th planet, before guys became obsessed with leg locks. That's how I started. That base helped me adapt to the gi with very little adjustment. Again, I found that the slower pace of the gi game was easier for me. I found that the control of the grips made life easier for me. So after about a month of training in the gi, I was caught up to speed at my level.

    I didn't say I'm better at one or the other. I'm just fine in both. I just find the gi to be easier because of the pace and extra control options. I'm unranked but I've been grappling for years and can hang with purples.

    Easier doesn't mean better. I'm at my level in both the gi in no gi. Black belts run through me. Browns burn through me. Against purples I'm pretty even. Against blues I usually get the better. Against whites I feel guilty. But whether I'm in the gi or not, I'm at my level in both. I just find the gi to be easier. I don't feel like I'm dying by the end of it.

    [​IMG]
     
    #58
  19. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

    BJJ_Rage
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    17,338
    Likes Received:
    2,837
    I meant mainly, I got 3 different lenguages on my phone, does my poor English bothers you? we can continue his shit in Spanish or Portuguese, may be that suit you better...

    You didn't say you grapple in both, of course if you are currently grappling in both things are different, my point is that you cannot be a pure no gi guy and then you jump in the gi and say, this shits it's easier, then back that with, well I'm rolling with white and blues...
     
    #59
  20. Bubblun Brown Belt

    Bubblun
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2012
    Messages:
    2,612
    Likes Received:
    1,263
    Posts like these make reading this forum worth.
    Holy cow.
     
    #60
    mataleaos likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"