God and Fighting

I think the depiction of the event (by Leon Bonnat, 1876) is a good representation of the stalemate that it turned out to be. It looks like a neutral position. Jacob attempting the takedown, but the angel is staying heavy and messing with Jacob's base, so I think it will be defended successfully. At first I thought the angel should have been using his forearm to press on Jacob's face, but the longer I look at it, the less successful I think the attempt will be. If he can weaken Jacob's knee (base) with that left foot, the arm position, heavy on his back, is good.

If he fought dirty, there is a nice opportunity to grab a handful of face an eyes, or do some fish hooking,
 
Thank you for reading the piece. I think you are right about many things in that post. I will only deal with why a fighter shouldn't thank him for a successful bout.

The bottom line is that the fighter is thanking him for the strength to do something that God does not approve of, according to Torah. Not saying "thank you, God for allowing me to destroy your other child's brain even though it was not necessary", doesn't remove the fact that he chose to do so.
You're focusing too much on the flesh...

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
 
I agree fighters shouldnt think God after a win but what about none fighting athletes thanking God? Is God flipping a coin between the star quaterback and the starving kid in Africa when choosing who's prayers he answers?
 
You're focusing too much on the flesh...

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience.
I agree. I am sure you agree we should use this life to learn and evolve, always trying to improve our conduct. Getting closer to God in that way. Knowing what is expected of us can help.
 
I agree fighters shouldnt think God after a win but what about none fighting athletes thanking God? Is God flipping a coin between the star quaterback and the starving kid in Africa when choosing who's prayers he answers?
God can probably do more than one thing at once. :D

It doesn't seem to be as big as an issue as someone in fight sports doing it since the sport they engage in isn't all about injuring someone else, or putting your own life at risk. God is fine with the sport. It seems that it would be acceptable.

I'm not going to give an opinion on whether they should or shouldn't, or whether God decides who wins football games.
 
We were Created in God's Image...in Scripture, God is a warrior. Makes sense why man has a fighting/competitive spirit.

I highly doubt fighters thank God for injuring someone, but for giving them strength to make it through an ardous camp, and balancing that with with work and home life.

One last thing, Christians are to thank Our Father for the good and the "bad", so why wouldn't a fighter than Him for a successful bout?

Why don't we ever hear losing fighters thank God?
 
God can probably do more than one thing at once. :D

It doesn't seem to be as big as an issue as someone in fight sports doing it since the sport they engage in isn't all about injuring someone else, or putting your own life at risk. God is fine with the sport. It seems that it would be acceptable.

I'm not going to give an opinion on whether they should or shouldn't, or whether God decides who wins football games.
K thanks
 
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I agree. I am sure you agree we should use this life to learn and evolve, always trying to improve our conduct. Getting closer to God in that way. Knowing what is expected of us can help.
I hear ya' loud and clear.

I think we gotta get this notion out of our heads that all Christians are to be mirror images of one another. We're all different members of The Body, and God uses each and every one of us in different ways. The only thing we're to mirror is God's Grace, Love, and Mercy.

I know that sounds contradictory to breaking someone's nose in the cage, but I get the feeling most Christians fighters don't fight with anger or malice.

Not saying either of us is right, or wrong.

I reckon we'll find out eventually!
 
Why don't we ever hear losing fighters thank God?
Maybe not on the mic...typically, losing fighters aren't even interviewed.

A mature Christian will thank God for the sunshine and for the rain.
 
It wasn't a shot at Ben. This is not a popular topic. I would be interested in hearing what he and other Xtian fighters have to say on the matter.
I'm just teasing you. It's an interesting subject, I've settled on another side personally, but it's definitely something I've pondered.
 
Oh, I've been studying boxing and MMA fights for 20 years now and I certainly am not going to stop. The scientist in me can't turn down that much self-defense data.
 
Here is Evander Holyfield on the subject right after knocking out Mike Tyson:



Please enjoy. :D
 
This article is a response to the comments made by Michael McDonald, Manny Pacquiao and some fans. Thank you. I hope you find it informative.






PREFACE :


The purpose of this article is to explore the somewhat confusing relationship between God and fighting. Should a person praise God after destroying one of His children for money and fame? How does God feel about fight training? And what are the laws of self-defense?

In this article, "God" is referring to the God of Adam through to Noah from Genesis (Beresheit) in the Torah/5 Books of Moses since it is seen as a holy text by most Christians and Muslims, and because Judaism, Christianity and Islam are "the big 3" in the world at this time.

The Torah was also chosen because it contains clear commandments and a code of conduct for mankind. There seems to be a lack of knowledge about the commandments and what laws apply to whom. It is true that the Torah (meaning "instructions") presents 613 laws for Jews, but many don't know that there is a separate code for non-Jews, as well, since we are talking about the times before the revelation at Sinai. This is all pre-Judaism. Adam and Noah were not Jewish. Let me be clear: The Ten Commandments (or "sayings") do not apply to non-Jews.

The time of Adam began about 5776 years ago, which happens to fall in line with when the British Museum recognizes that "civilization" began (about 5500 years ago). God created Adam and gave him 6 Universal Laws for operating on Earth. They are as follows:

1. Prohibition of Idolatry (no worshiping anything that was created, statue, tree, human, no witchcraft etc.)
2. Prohibition of Blasphemy (respect God's name)
3. Prohibition of Murder and Injury (do not harm others)
4. Prohibition of Forbidden Relations (no adultery, incest, homosexuality, "spilling seed", bestiality)
5. Prohibition of Theft (do not steal, or deal dishonestly)
6. Establishment of Courts and Laws (prohibitions for Lawyers, Police and Judges)

The people at that time did not keep the commandments and broke the first covenant with God, so He chose to destroy all flesh and start a new plan. He then instructed Noah and his sons to build the ark. After the flood, a final commandment was added for all mankind:

7. Prohibition of Eating Meat That Was Separated From A Live Animal (laws of animal cruelty and diet)


US Public Law 102-14 states:

"Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and upon which our great Nation was founded; Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as the Seven Noahide Laws".

These 7 laws seem like really basic rules at first glance, but they are actually 7 categories of Law that are broken down into incredible detail. Notice how they are all prohibitions. Even the establishment of courts is a negative commandment because it deals directly with misconduct and corruption in the judicial system.

I will delve into the Prohibition of Murder and Injury in order to show how God feels about prizefighting, martial arts and self-defense.

The textbook I will be using is "The Divine Code" (Sheva Mitzvot Hashem) by Rabbi Moshe Weiner and Dr Michael Schulman, which uses and translates ancient Torah commentaries from some of the great men of Law and Torah, such as the Rambam (Maimonades), to clarify what is expected of non-Jews in the eyes of God.

People who take on the 7 Laws are sometimes called Noahides, B'nai Noach or Ger and are seen as either righteous or wise non-Jews, depending on why they take on the Laws. This is not a religion. They are laws for a healthy society that have existed since ancient times.

-----


"Jacob was left alone and a man (angel) wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When he perceived that he could not overcome him, he struck the side of his hip; so Jacob's hip-socket was dislocated as he wrestled with him." Genesis 32:25-26

A cosmic MMA match/training session 'til dawn? How tough was Jacob that he fought so long and even continued to fight with a dislocated hip? This "man" couldn't take Jacob out in a grappling match, so he decided to strike him? What kind of strike are we talking about here? A strong kick to the hip area? Could this be the beginning of organized martial arts, and systems of self-defense? Did this "man" come to transfer a "higher" knowledge of wrestling and boxing to people?

This mysterious passage is quite appropriate since there is a lot of confusion when it comes to God and fighting. There are certain things about fighting that it seems a super-intelligent creator would appreciate about training in self-defense, such as discipline, courage, improved mental and physical health, singular focus, empathy etc. But what exactly does God think of prizefighting? Under what circumstances are we allowed, or even encouraged to use these fighting skills?

"One who comes to kill you, precede him, and kill him" (Tractate Sanhedrin 72a) was a well-known saying among the Sages, meaning if you think the person is coming to kill you, don't wait around to verify it, kill him first. There are many instances where the Torah says it is permissible to injure or kill another person, such as if he breaks into your home with you and your family present. One cannot know what the intruder's intentions are. Even if he only comes for money, he may kill you if you attempt to thwart his plan. If he is caught in the yard, or leaving the property, you may not kill him since your life is not in immediate danger. [Rambam, Laws of Theft]

This law of self defense does not seem to apply to prizefighting since there is no victim or pursuer. In the prize ring both participants are pursuers. They are essentially two men who have agreed to assault one another for money and fame. Both understand that they may die as a result of the competition. They should also understand that they could kill the opponent, even if it is only their desire to separate him from consciousness for a temporary amount of time, which is in itself severe and damaging to a person.

When a fighter walks into a ring to fight, his aim is to harm the other person, even if there is no personal quarrel between the two, which is already an unnatural situation. Sometimes there is real hatred between the competitors, and this attracts much more attention, probably because it is something people can identify with. Virtually everyone has wanted to punch someone who hurt, or disrespected them. Much of the time, the fight makes the hatred worse and untold damage is done to the psyches of both fighters who carry these negative feelings around with them. Once in awhile, the fight brings out a new respect, but this is not the way a civilized person should attempt to solve issues with his fellow man.

I think it is important to examine the law against harming one's self in this instance because of the unusual environment of the competitive ring. First, there is months of build-up, whereas people can usually deal with the situation either right away or shortly after the argument. Then there is a crowd and rooting interests, when these are usually private matters. You have the fans, who take sides on the issues. There is money on the line and pressure to win and provide for oneself. Then there is a referee, who is there to stop a fight so that no one dies. The fighter willingly puts himself in an extremely dangerous and strange situation when accepting a fight.

"It is forbidden to place oneself in danger..." (ch. 7:1) [Shulhan Aruh, Ha'Rav Orah Hayim 618:111]

"Just as it is forbidden to harm another person, it is also forbidden to harm oneself" (ch. 6:4) [Rambam's Laws of Injury and Damages 5:1]

Both parties understand the risk, but that does not make it all right, as explained in the prohibition of causing personal injury or damage:

"If there is a purpose in it, such as toil for making a living, it is surely permitted- For this reason, it is permitted to participate in sports that have a nominal degree of risk for injury, similar to different types of widely accepted work that have some risk, that many people accept in order to earn an income. But if the aim of the sport is to injure another person, it is forbidden." (ch. 6:4) [Rambam's Laws of Injury and Damages 5:1]

So it appears that fighting in the combat ring is not an acceptable decision according to God. He does not excuse either party and they will be held accountable for the damage they inflict. So a person who praises God after destroying one of His children for material wealth, ego and fame should actually either quit fighting professionally, or just stop bringing up God. In short, God does not approve of fighting under these circumstances.

However, God does approve of the martial arts for their usefulness in defending oneself, one's family and the innocent. In fact, we have an obligation to do just that:

"It is an obligation on every person to save another person from bodily or life-threatening damage." (ch. 7:1) [Tractate Sanhedrin 72a]

God also wants us to use and teach the fighting arts for personal growth, since that is why he created us in the first place. There is value in learning a move and then improving and perfecting it over time. If one accepts that there are fundamental Laws of integrity at work in the Universe, one will attempt to do things the right way and that mindset can be brought to the gym. A jab, thrown correctly, with proper timing and form, beats a sloppy jab.

In closing: To all the fighters who praise God after causing trauma to another person's brain... please, stop. He doesn't approve of what you are doing and he's not on your side in the ring.

Hillel's Golden Rule of the Torah: "That which is hateful to you (getting knocked out and suffering brain damage, embarrassment), do not do to your fellow. Everything else is explanation (commentary); go and learn."

I look forward to your comments and questions and will reply to all of them.

Outside of the story between Jacob and God that you posted the rest is unbiblical.... Rambam's Laws of injury?? Never heard of it.

Boxing, MMA Fighting is not addressed in the bible.

The struggle between God and Jacob is more or less God conforming Jacob so that He could bless Jacob. Trust me if God wanted to beat Jacob he could have killed him no problem. Jacob was struggling. Many times God will place us in situations that are either cause fear, confusion, loneliness, chaos so that He can conform us into the image He wants us to be. This was more than just a grappling match and Jacob recognized it. He knew it was something bigger. God touched Jacob's hip as a reminder to humble him- similar to Paul's thorn in the flesh. They aren't independent, they are dependent on God.

And after this struggle Jacob is born again and named Israel. How often do we see people come into some earthly battle or hit rock bottom only to come out born again? You hear people on Sherdog say it all the time: "Oh you came to God? Did you end up in jail? Do you have a drug problem or something?" And We see it so many times in the bible. Abram became Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter, Saul to Paul.

So this fight I believed is taken out of context and cannot accurately correlate to prizefighting. With that said I personally look at fighting as a sport. Often times in sports people get hurt. I use to compete in MMA and I had no ill will towards any of the people I fought. Often times we became friends after our fight. I'm sure each stance is individual...if one feels convicted not to fight then they shouldn't fight. But personally I say if you outlaw fighting from a Christianity standpoint you would have to do the same with pretty much every other sport.

Only danger I see in fighting is where people begin to idolize it. Just like any sport where you live and die for something and it becomes an idol. Other than that I don't really see any harm (no pun intended) in sports fighting.

To each their own
 
Outside of the story between Jacob and God that you posted the rest is unbiblical.... Rambam's Laws of injury?? Never heard of it.

Boxing, MMA Fighting is not addressed in the bible.

The struggle between God and Jacob is more or less God conforming Jacob so that He could bless Jacob. Trust me if God wanted to beat Jacob he could have killed him no problem. Jacob was struggling. Many times God will place us in situations that are either cause fear, confusion, loneliness, chaos so that He can conform us into the image He wants us to be. This was more than just a grappling match and Jacob recognized it. He knew it was something bigger. God touched Jacob's hip as a reminder to humble him- similar to Paul's thorn in the flesh. They aren't independent, they are dependent on God.

And after this struggle Jacob is born again and named Israel. How often do we see people come into some earthly battle or hit rock bottom only to come out born again? You hear people on Sherdog say it all the time: "Oh you came to God? Did you end up in jail? Do you have a drug problem or something?" And We see it so many times in the bible. Abram became Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter, Saul to Paul.

So this fight I believed is taken out of context and cannot accurately correlate to prizefighting. With that said I personally look at fighting as a sport. Often times in sports people get hurt. I use to compete in MMA and I had no ill will towards any of the people I fought. Often times we became friends after our fight. I'm sure each stance is individual...if one feels convicted not to fight then they shouldn't fight. But personally I say if you outlaw fighting from a Christianity standpoint you would have to do the same with pretty much every other sport.

Only danger I see in fighting is where people begin to idolize it. Just like any sport where you live and die for something and it becomes an idol. Other than that I don't really see any harm (no pun intended) in sports fighting.

To each their own
I would like to thank you for this post. I can tell you feel strongly about it, so I'm glad you spoke up. I will be as thorough as I can be.

Rambam references the Torah verses in every quote I used. I did not include the verses because I was already quoting two sources, but I have them and if you would like me to add them, I can and will. Just say the word and it will be done by tomorrow morning. That said, Rambam (Maimonides) is one of the giants of Law and Torah and more. He is a reputable source.

I enjoy your interpretation of the passage and find value in it, especially the point about our conduct under pressure bringing us closer to God. One thing I would add is that I have heard some Rabbis say that the "man" was actually an angel. And the translation of the Hebrew that I have says that he "struck" him on the hip.

I did not attempt to correlate the passage to prizefighting. It is a famous example of am epic fight in Torah. And one that can be taken a number of ways.

In terms of fighting just being like any other sport, like soccer, for instance, I have to disagree. And the Law does make a distinction between the two. People may break an ankle in soccer, but the entire aim of the sport isn't to injure someone, as is the case with fight sports. That makes them fundamentally different.

One cannot ignore the prohibition of putting our life in danger when it is not necessary to do so. If someone is trying to kill you, your family or an innocent person, you can kill them. It is actually our obligation to stop them. Fight training is useful in this case.

Your having no ill will toward who you were fighting was also covered in the article, where I went into what an unnatural situation the whole thing is.
 
I would like to thank you for this post. I can tell you feel strongly about it, so I'm glad you spoke up. I will be as thorough as I can be.

Rambam references the Torah verses in every quote I used. I did not include the verses because I was already quoting two sources, but I have them and if you would like me to add them, I can and will. Just say the word and it will be done by tomorrow morning. That said, Rambam (Maimonides) is one of the giants of Law and Torah and more. He is a reputable source.

I enjoy your interpretation of the passage and find value in it, especially the point about our conduct under pressure bringing us closer to God. One thing I would add is that I have heard some Rabbis say that the "man" was actually an angel. And the translation of the Hebrew that I have says that he "struck" him on the hip.

I did not attempt to correlate the passage to prizefighting. It is a famous example of am epic fight in Torah. And one that can be taken a number of ways.

In terms of fighting just being like any other sport, like soccer, for instance, I have to disagree. And the Law does make a distinction between the two. People may break an ankle in soccer, but the entire aim of the sport isn't to injure someone, as is the case with fight sports. That makes them fundamentally different.

One cannot ignore the prohibition of putting our life in danger when it is not necessary to do so. If someone is trying to kill you, your family or an innocent person, you can kill them. It is actually our obligation to stop them. Fight training is useful in this case.

Your having no ill will toward who you were fighting was also covered in the article, where I went into what an unnatural situation the whole thing is.

Thank you for your response. I'm not familiar with Rambam so if you could include the verses from the bible to back your sources that you would be great, and I could look at it from a biblical point of view.

So what's your stance on hockey? Rugby? or Football? What do you make of the full contact issue here? If you think Christians shouldn't practice these sports as well then I guess I can see your point even though I wouldn't agree with it.

anyways I would consider an MMA fight compared to the real world...as fight training at one of the highest levels. Most fighters don't wish any real injury on the other fighter outside of the cage. If you see someone get hurt like Anderson Silva who broke his shin normally the opponent expresses how they didn't want to win this way. I really don't see the distinction between MMA fighting and other sports honestly-I know from outsiders perspective it's hard to imagine cause at times it can look quite barbaric. But some of the toughest battles I've ever been in are from some of my best friends in gym wars.
 
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Canaanites in "Israel" invented Abraham for land claims: they put in this mythology in ancient texts that Abraham bought land in Hebron for his descendants, the so called chosen people. They wrote mythology about themsleves for benefit. There is not God. There were no Jewish slaves in Egypt, that's a fact. Jews came 1000 years lager. The exodus bullshit story came into writing a few hundred years after the abraham story, written by iron age Canaanites. There was no exodus, it's all bull shit. Google it.
 
Hillel's Golden Rule of the Torah: "That which is hateful to you (getting knocked out and suffering brain damage, embarrassment), do not do to your fellow. Everything else is explanation (commentary); go and learn."

I look forward to your comments and questions and will reply to all of them.

Hillel is nowhere in my bible.
 

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