Glory 49 & Redemption: Verhoeven vs Ben Saddik

Yeah I agree most likely not but I think kiria is still a decent fighter that probably could of held his own back in Buakaws day. He's just been losing a lot recently because he fights many other good fighters.
No, Kiria is just incredibly average. I mean, in his title victory in Glory he lost 4/5 rounds and lucked out that Ristie faded at the end. He would have been Drago level at best.

I'm just not seeing a gap at all from then to today. The 70KG division was WAY more competitive in the fact that the sport was consolidated back then alone. Now you can't even get the best to fight the best. Back then they had to.

Just watch the fucking fights K-1 MAX was WAY more exciting and action packed than fights these days.

The technique was there, the deep talent pool was there, the consistency of events was there.

What am I missing?
 
Really? Every Samkor video i've seen (against other thais) he was roundhousing guys, even greats like Sangtiennoi. He had a strong clinch game but to me his roundhouse is what really stands out when you watch him.
I not saying he didn't kick much but when the fight got heated up he spent much more time clinching than some like kongsak or sam-a who were always looking to stay on the outside.
 
Doesn't agreeing with this contradict and deflate your reasoning for why you view Buakaw as such a great kicker?
We are speaking in regards to Kickboxing. Surely there are better kickers having to land shots with a higher level of difficulty in Muay Thai.
 
I don't buy the argument of fighters being more used to thais. Thais have been fighting internationally for decades and their opposition still can't handle a good kicker most of the times. Sato fought alot of times against thais, Masato, Kraus, Drago several times. No way the average 2017 kickboxer have more fights against good thais than those guys.
If Thais have been figured out in 2017 then why are all the best guys at 70KG in 2017 Thai? <Lmaoo>
 
If Samkor wasn't a good kicker then who is? I though he was known for his hard kicks? Are the current top 130-135 lbs guys that much better at kicking than he was? Panpayak sure but i don't know if its fair to say he wasn't a very good kicker.

Samkor wasn't that great of a kicker by the standards of his time or today. You can find probably at least a dozen guys from both periods who would have been better kickers. His reputation is based off beating up foreign scrubs in Japan.
 
Who is throwing a switch lead roundhouse like Buakaw today? Look at him. He's at another level in this fight.
Are we talking kickboxing or in general?

Prajanchai has a great switch kick, Petsiri gym and 96Penang has had some great switch kickers over the years. Nong-O and Diesellek for example.

Convenient excuse to post this video:
 
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Samkor wasn't that great of a kicker by the standards of his time or today. You can find probably at least a dozen guys from both periods who would have been better kickers. His reputation is based off beating up foreign scrubs in Japan.
Were you in thailand back when he was fighting in the stadiums? I've heard by some people that were in that scene back then and said he was known for hard kicks.

I feel like you guys are questioning him only because he beat up some japanese guys with it. If i said, Panomrunglek or Kaimukkhao are hard kickers you sure wouldn't question it, but if they were to beat up some Japanese guys with kicks, then you'd say theyre overrated.
 
Were you in thailand back when he was fighting in the stadiums? I've heard by some people that were in that scene back then and said he was known for hard kicks.

There is footage of him fighting during the Golden Era. More than of most fighters from that time. I've seen it, this is how I'm drawing my conclusion. Clearly, you haven't done your homework. Watch the fights yourself, he isn't an especially effective kicker, compared to guys like Sam-A, or Panpayak or Singdam or whoever, and frequently resorts to clinching and kneeing.






When he fights random guys in Japan the difference is stark:
 
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There is footage of him fighting during the Golden Era. More than of most fighters from that time. I've seen it, this is how I'm drawing my conclusion. Clearly, you haven't done your homework. Watch the fights yourself, he isn't an especially effective kicker and frequently resorts to clinching and kneeing.






When he fights random guys in Japan the difference is stark:

Again, not saying Samkor is a bad kicker or not a hard kicker or whatever. He's definitely an above average kicker. Just not the kicking god that he's been made out to be on the basis of half a dozen fights vs. total cans.
 
Well i think the discussion was about kickboxers, not nak muays. Kongsak and Singdam probably have harder kicks than Buakaw and also more useful kicks against a wide range of opponents. What i like about Buakaw is the way he put together super fast round kicks and teeps and low kick defense he was almost invincible in kickboxing. Sittichai and Superbon at least aren't close. I'd say Petpanomrung kicks just as fast as Buakaw but with more damaging power. I'd say he is a better kicker, maybe not as asthetic looking though.

If Samkor wasn't a good kicker then who is? I though he was known for his hard kicks? Are the current top 130-135 lbs guys that much better at kicking than he was? Panpayak sure but i don't know if its fair to say he wasn't a very good kicker.


I don't buy the argument of fighters being more used to thais. Thais have been fighting internationally for decades and their opposition still can't handle a good kicker most of the times. Sato fought alot of times against thais, Masato, Kraus, Drago several times. No way the average 2017 kickboxer have more fights against good thais than those guys.

I didn't mean to come across as saying Samkor was a poor kicker but rather using him as example of what often happens when Thais fight abroad (their kicks come faster and harder).
 
I didn't mean to come across as saying Samkor was a poor kicker but rather using him as example of what often happens when Thais fight abroad (their kicks come faster and harder).
Well in fairness, he said "if Samkor isn't a great kicker than who is?". As if Samkor should be the standard to which all other Thais are measured.
 
I'm only going by thais that transitioned and not what ifs.

I thought your posts were vague on the details, and in your response to aberudder you didn't make it clear by not shooting down their overall abilities as fighters (seemingly insinuating that Petpanomrung's run in Muay Thai makes him an overall better fighter). I just figured a fighter is a fighter and kicking technique can be mutual in both sports. Oh well.
 
Or to take another example, watch some of Sinbi Taewoong's fights against guys who don't even try and defend kicks. He's able to rattles off like 5 switch kicks in a row. Was he actually a great switch kicker? I don't know. In general I would think that a good kick can be made to look spectacular when fighting someone who has no idea how to defend it. And that the proper measure of someone's skill is how they apply it against competent opponents.

 
Well in fairness, he said "if Samkor isn't a great kicker than who is?". As if Samkor should be the standard to which all other Thais are measured.
There is footage of him fighting during the Golden Era. More than of most fighters from that time. I've seen it, this is how I'm drawing my conclusion. Clearly, you haven't done your homework. Watch the fights yourself, he isn't an especially effective kicker, compared to guys like Sam-A, or Panpayak or Singdam or whoever, and frequently resorts to clinching and kneeing.






When he fights random guys in Japan the difference is stark:

I didn't mean to come across as saying Samkor was a poor kicker but rather using him as example of what often happens when Thais fight abroad (their kicks come faster and harder).
I've definitely seen Samkors stadium fights and am very well aware that he doesn't kick alot in them. A fighter can be good at something but still mostly use other weapons to gain a strategic advantage in fights. If Superbank doesn't punch alot in the stadiums, does it mean his hands aren't good? Obviously he is not an elite boxer but it would be fair to say he has good hands at least. In the same way, Samkor mostly clinched in those fights but his kick was still known to be quite hard. I can't judge his kicking abilities against skilled kickers but that was never my intention

Me saying "if samkor isn't a great kicker, then who is?" is something i wrote without really thinking but it's vague and not to be taken out of context. I never think of Samkor as the standard of what a great kicker is actually. The ones that always come to my mind are Singdam and Kongsak. To be more precise, i'd say he didn't use his kicks as effectively as the other good kickers, but i still think his kick was pretty hard for his size. Even when he beat Japanese guys i think he kicked hard. Not sure if Kongsak and Superlek inflicted as much damage (not counting the head kick KO's) to the body of their japanese opppnents as Samkor did.
 
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I've definitely seen Samkors stadium fights and am very well aware that he doesn't kick alot in them. A fighter can be good at something but still mostly use other weapons to gain a strategic advantage in fights. If Superbank doesn't punch alot in the stadiums, does it mean his hands aren't good? Obviously he is not an elite boxer but it would be fair to say he has good hands at least. In the same way, Samkor mostly clinched in those fights but his kick was still known to be quite hard. I can't judge his kicking abilities against skilled kickers but that was never my intention

First of all there is definitely a greater strategic advantage to kicking more than there is to punching more.

And while there might sometimes have been situations where it was in Samkor's best interest to clinch alot. But if his kicking ability was really as great as people make out, then he probably would have forgone clinching alot more than he did. His reliance on clinching suggests to me that he didn't have the total confidence in that part of his game that other fighters do. And when you watch him go kick for kick with other good Thais, he rarely outclasses them.

Me saying "if samkor isn't a great kicker, then who is?" is something i wrote without really thinking but it's vague and not to be taken out of context. To be more precise, i'd say he didn't use his kicks as effectively as the other good kickers, but i still think his kick was pretty hard for his size. Even when he beat Japanese guys i think he kicked hard. Not sure if Kongsak and Superlek inflicted as much damage (not counting the head kick KO's) to the body of their japanese opppnents as Samkor did.

Whether he kicks harder than other fighters is going to be very difficult for us to access. And isn't really that interesting. Whether he is more effective is alot easier to answer. But again, who cares if he can beat up random cans more emphatically than Kongsak can. I'd rather be able to apply these skills against real competition, wouldn't anyone.
 
First of all there is definitely a greater strategic advantage to kicking more than there is to punching more.

And while there might sometimes have been situations where it was in Samkor's best interest to clinch alot. But if his kicking ability was really as great as people make out, then he probably would have forgone clinching alot more than he did. His reliance on clinching suggests to me that he didn't have the total confidence in that part of his game that other fighters do. And when you watch him go kick for kick with other good Thais, he rarely outclasses them.



Whether he kicks harder than other fighters is going to be very difficult for us to access. And isn't really that interesting. Whether he is more effective is alot easier to answer. But again, who cares if he can beat up random cans more emphatically than Kongsak can. I'd rather be able to apply these skills against real competition, wouldn't anyone.
People have different tastes. There is a beauty in what Panpayak and Singdam does but also in what Samkor did against foreigners. All in the eye of the beholder. The definition of great kicker is vague though. It's the same in GOAT discussions because everyone mean different things. If you asked me, did Samkor have a great kick? I'd answer yes. If you asked me if Samkor was an elite effective kicker, i'd answer not particularly. You guys are mixing kicking up with kick defense and other things that play a role in winning a fight though. To make a comparison i'd say Kaimukkhao was a great kicker, but it didn't help him against being KO'd several times because of other aspects in his game that were lacking. So perhaps he wasn't a great kicker.
 
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Samkor beat guys like Sangtiennoi, Wangchannoi and Attachai, he was an elite kicker but not goat status probably. According to Samkor in his siamfightmag interview he fought saenchai twice and went 1-1, went 3-1 vs namsaknoi, 1-0 vs karuhat but there doesn't appear to be footage on a lot of those fights. Wonder if @anorak saw any of those?
 
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