Giving up Gi chokes to the heavier guy

[Snolla]

Does anyone have any tips on defending Gi chokes when you are giving up 70-80 pounds? Also this student has very good fundamentals. He uses his weight SO well and the moment he gets an X-Choke on me, or some form of it, he drives his weight down slowly and I'm always tapping. He got me 7 times in one roll once. I am a blue belt and he is a purple.

I have tapped him before and I can do OK as long as I keep his hands off my neck but lately he has been dominating me. What is the proper defense too this? Is there a way to break a strong grip on your collar when your on your back and being controlled but a guy almost 100lb heavier than you?

Perhaps I need to avoid letting him get there in the first place but I need advice on what to do once I'm there.

Thankyou and Oss

 

[SummerStriker]

Mind if I ask how much you weigh?

There is a big difference between a 150 taking on a fit 230, and a 230 taking on a fat 300.

 

[Snolla]

Mind if I ask how much you weigh?

There is a big difference between a 150 taking on a fit 230, and a 230 taking on a fat 300.

Yup, I'm 170 and he's 250 at least. He's also in shape, strong, and technical.

 

[SummerStriker]

I don't know. I'm 260 and I have a harder time with fit 200s than anyone I've ever met over 300. When a 300 pounder tries to gi choke me, I almost always focus on minimal defense while getting back to half guard. Then I sweep or pry them off with a lock down or something. I think you have to try to do two things at once - defend the choke while recovering a guard. Most people can't attack the choke while defending the guard recovery.

I don't really know though.

 

[Snolla]

I might simply be outmatched. If he was just big and strong that is one thing, but he is very technical. Slow and methodical. Once he passes guard (usually crushes passed) he takes his time. He will grab the grips and use a minute or two to close it off. He is stronger than me, out weighs me by a ton, and is better at BJJ than me so I'm boned lol

If I were to fight him in a self defense situation, grappling would be the last thing I have in mind. Luckily, I have sparred with him in kickboxing and that is where I can dominate him. Sometimes it's just not a good idea to grapple if faced with a MUCH bigger and stronger opponent.

I know all the purists will say that BJJ is the art to defend against this type of opponent but there are way more variables at play that this blanket statement doesn't address.

 

[Solidus Snake]

Well Bjj is the art to defend IF the other heavier guy knows less than you. If he's already the better grappler, or even around your level, then grappling with him shouldn't certainly be high on your priorities.

That said.. I think you already said it all.. he's stronger, heavier and already better than you.. from what I've seen from the few little black belts I've rolled with, good smaller guys never let bigger guys grab their lapels or even putting them in pressure positions, that's where you should start to work, to prevent getting him there.. if an heavyweight has the two lapels in place and your guard passed, there is not much you can do anyway that would consistenly work..

 

[Snolla]

Well Bjj is the art to defend IF the other heavier guy knows less than you. If he's already the better grappler, or even around your level, then grappling with him shouldn't certainly be high on your priorities.

That said.. I think you already said it all.. he's stronger, heavier and already better than you.. from what I've seen from the few little black belts I've rolled with, good smaller guys never let bigger guys grab their lapels or even putting them in pressure positions, that's where you should start to work, to prevent getting him there.. if an heavyweight has the two lapels in place and your guard passed, there is not much you can do anyway that would consistenly work..

I will try to stop him from putting me in those bad positions to begin with. Thanks for the advice

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yup, I'm 170 and he's 250 at least. He's also in shape, strong, and technical.

Don't let him pass your guard.

 

[Snolla]

Don't let him pass your guard.

ok

 

[Lenny7]

Go to class on no gi days.

 

[Uchi Mata]

ok

I don't mean that in a glib way (well, a little bit maybe), but the truth is that a much bigger, stronger, technical guy getting on top of you is very bad, and your options for defense at that point are pretty limited. Certainly you can try and strip grips and escape, but the real answer is that you need to prevent him from ever getting on top in the first place. Work on your defensive guard, guard recovery, etc. In the long run that will serve you better than concentrating on specific defenses once you're already in a terrible position against a much bigger guy. The whole point of the guard, before you worry about sweeping or submitting anyone, is just to keep dudes off you.

 

[Snolla]

I don't mean that in a glib way (well, a little bit maybe), but the truth is that a much bigger, stronger, technical guy getting on top of you is very bad, and your options for defense at that point are pretty limited. Certainly you can try and strip grips and escape, but the real answer is that you need to prevent him from ever getting on top in the first place. Work on your defensive guard, guard recovery, etc. In the long run that will serve you better than concentrating on specific defenses once you're already in a terrible position against a much bigger guy. The whole point of the guard, before you worry about sweeping or submitting anyone, is just to keep dudes off you.

Awesome advice thank you. I can't even wrap my legs all the way around him, he's that big

 

[Russky]

ok

I'd rephrase that as "give up your guard before it is passed". If you know your guard will be passed open it up, go to open guard, half guard. Just do not let him to pass it and flatten you on the ground.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Awesome advice thank you. I can't even wrap my legs all the way around him, he's that big

I'm not specifically talking about closed guard. Play open guards, but make sure you're keeping frames between him and you at all times. Knee shields, feet on the hips, legs, biceps, framing against the chest and neck, pushing on the head, whatever, don't let him settle weight on you, at least not without having some sort of frame in between. Against much bigger people the smaller guy will lose static exchanges. You need to be defending with framing, movement, and redirection. Arm drags, omoplatas, getting under with X guard type stuff, that's how the smaller guy deals with the bigger guy.

 

[Gabicho]

In my experience the best thing you can do against bigger guys who love to get grips and choke you out, is to grip fight while sticking to basics like posture, angles and not getting smashed. Different guards help with this as mentioned by UchiMata.
When size disparity is too big, you will have a very hard time breaking the grips, so don't allow them to take them in the first place, or make them really work for it so they don't think or feel it's worth the effort. If you force them to change plans because whatever they were trying to do is not working, then you have a window of oportunity.
In this grip-fighting people usually have to force something to get to where they want to, and open windows for sweeps/throws/submissions/re-guards and/or whatever. Guys who are very good at something, get thrown off balance when they can't get to a position to execute their plan.
Of course, if he also has killer kimuras, armbars, guard passes and triangles, and is overall stronger and better than you, well, you're screwed, but at least not getting choked. One step at a time.

If he grips you the way he wants, he is already making progress to the tap. Keep that progress low. If you're trying to break the grips and escape once you're turning purple and under side control, it's too late.
Against bigger guys you have to be preventive, not corrective.
So, again, fight for the grips.

In my younger belt days, i was always getting ezekiel'd by a strong purple at my gym. He was pretty good at it. First, experimented different approaches to defend on my own. Then asked my coach. Then asked him. Then experimented and drilled. Rinse and repeat, and in time, i wasn't getting tapped by him anymore with ezekiel's, and i haven't been tapped with it for years.
But... not only because i learned how to defend it, but also because i started to realize that it is much better - but not easier - to stop him from getting the grips at all instead of defending last minute. Then i realized it was much better - but perhaps not easier - to stop him from mounting. Then i realized it was better - but perhaps not easier - to stop him from passing my guard.

Some people say the best defense is not to let your guard passed. Yes, of course, but you have to think worst case-scenario and work from correction to prevention... because everybody starts being new and screwing almost everything up

 

[Snolla]

I don't mean that in a glib way (well, a little bit maybe), but the truth is that a much bigger, stronger, technical guy getting on top of you is very bad, and your options for defense at that point are pretty limited. Certainly you can try and strip grips and escape, but the real answer is that you need to prevent him from ever getting on top in the first place. Work on your defensive guard, guard recovery, etc. In the long run that will serve you better than concentrating on specific defenses once you're already in a terrible position against a much bigger guy. The whole point of the guard, before you worry about sweeping or submitting anyone, is just to keep dudes off you.

In my experience the best thing you can do against bigger guys who love to get grips and choke you out, is to grip fight while sticking to basics like posture, angles and not getting smashed. Different guards help with this as mentioned by UchiMata.
When size disparity is too big, you will have a very hard time breaking the grips, so don't allow them to take them in the first place, or make them really work for it so they don't think or feel it's worth the effort. If you force them to change plans because whatever they were trying to do is not working, then you have a window of oportunity.
In this grip-fighting people usually have to force something to get to where they want to, and open windows for sweeps/throws/submissions/re-guards and/or whatever. Guys who are very good at something, get thrown off balance when they can't get to a position to execute their plan.
Of course, if he also has killer kimuras, armbars, guard passes and triangles, and is overall stronger and better than you, well, you're screwed, but at least not getting choked. One step at a time.

If he grips you the way he wants, he is already making progress to the tap. Keep that progress low. If you're trying to break the grips and escape once you're turning purple and under side control, it's too late.
Against bigger guys you have to be preventive, not corrective.
So, again, fight for the grips.

In my younger belt days, i was always getting ezekiel'd by a strong purple at my gym. He was pretty good at it. First, experimented different approaches to defend on my own. Then asked my coach. Then asked him. Then experimented and drilled. Rinse and repeat, and in time, i wasn't getting tapped by him anymore with ezekiel's, and i haven't been tapped with it for years.
But... not only because i learned how to defend it, but also because i started to realize that it is much better - but not easier - to stop him from getting the grips at all instead of defending last minute. Then i realized it was much better - but perhaps not easier - to stop him from mounting. Then i realized it was better - but perhaps not easier - to stop him from passing my guard.

Some people say the best defense is not to let your guard passed. Yes, of course, but you have to think worst case-scenario and work from correction to prevention... because everybody starts being new and screwing almost everything up

Thanks man!

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I might simply be outmatched. If he was just big and strong that is one thing, but he is very technical. Slow and methodical. Once he passes guard (usually crushes passed) he takes his time. He will grab the grips and use a minute or two to close it off. He is stronger than me, out weighs me by a ton, and is better at BJJ than me so I'm boned lol

If I were to fight him in a self defense situation, grappling would be the last thing I have in mind. Luckily, I have sparred with him in kickboxing and that is where I can dominate him. Sometimes it's just not a good idea to grapple if faced with a MUCH bigger and stronger opponent.

I know all the purists will say that BJJ is the art to defend against this type of opponent but there are way more variables at play that this blanket statement doesn't address.

Maybe he choked you 7 times because you beat him in kickboxing?

If you are laying flat on your back you are going to get choked by higher belts. You need to re establish half of full guard. With bigger guys I like to go to half with an under hook in and on my side. More often then not I'm either going to sweep them or take their back.

 

[loyalyolayal]

Yup, I'm 170 and he's 250 at least. He's also in shape, strong, and technical.

I for one think that he's just live drilling the chokes on you. Higher ranked with physical advantages tend to do this.

 

[Snolla]

I for one think that he's just live drilling the chokes on you. Higher ranked with physical advantages tend to do this.

I'm happy to help him in his development like any good training partner, but damn it's frustrating sometimes. At training last night he actually gave me tips to break the choke off (I told him about this thread lol). IF I can learn to break his lapels grips then I should be able to break ANYONE'S lapel grips (minus black belts maybe)

 

[loyalyolayal]

I'm happy to help him in his development like any good training partner, but damn it's frustrating sometimes. At training last night he actually gave me tips to break the choke off (I told him about this thread lol). IF I can learn to break his lapels grips then I should be able to break ANYONE'S lapel grips (minus black belts maybe)

I feel you. I had a brown belt (who got promoted to black a couple of months later) practically drilling knee on belly on me for 5 mins every time we sparred when I was a whitebelt. That's how you smarten up. Not me tho. I'm still dumb.