Fundamentals of Footwork

[a guy]

That's the one! I tried looking for it after reading your thread but couldn't find it. Thanks for the link!

No problem, I'm probably gonna spend my afternoon reading through it again haha

 

[Ilk]

Funny thing. I do not like the stance and feet positioning neither of Loma, nor Cotto but their movement is very controlled and balanced. They are too bladed for my liking. If you notice Tayson and how squared he is and how freaking strong his punches are due to his narrow foot positioning. I really like being narrow now feet very close and almost squared, makes for quicker punching and better balance according to me.

I have not trained much lately but in my last practice my new boxing coach showed me some really cool backing and right movement defensive comboes of 2-1-2 (to the right or to the back). I really linked that to your concept of feet hitting the floor at the moment of punch impact.

Great guide as usual, a guy!

 

[Uchi Mata]

Exactly man, you get it. That's why it's called a combat sport, or martial art... that's why you train to show no fear, no pain, and it's a big deal along with aggression...as opposed to some other "arts" where you train to be the first to sit on your ass in front of your opponent, and to tap as fast as you can because we wouldn't want you to sprain something...

Oh come on now. I love MT, but guys take the first two rounds off and only fight the 5th if the 3rd and 4th were competitive. It's like 6-9 minutes of real fighting, sometimes less if one guy gives up and they tacitly acknowledge the fight's over. You know all this to be true.

 

[a guy]

Funny thing. I do not like the stance and feet positioning neither of Loma, nor Cotto but their movement is very controlled and balanced. They are too bladed for my liking. If you notice Tayson and how squared he is and how freaking strong his punches are due to his narrow foot positioning. I really like being narrow now feet very close and almost squared, makes for quicker punching and better balance according to me.

I have not trained much lately but in my last practice my new boxing coach showed me some really cool backing and right movement defensive comboes of 2-1-2 (to the right or to the back). I really linked that to your concept of feet hitting the floor at the moment of punch impact.

Great guide as usual, a guy!

They definitely aren't too bladed. Both keep their feet very well positioned. Tyson would square up when he was really opening up, but he started in a similar foot position to the other guys and didn't square up until he had the opponent hurt or on the defensive. Even then, that style isn't gonna work for you if you aren't blessed with the same speed, power and explosiveness of Tyson. Whereas the foot positioning and techniques of Loma and Cotto will work for anyone regardless of physical attributes or style.

 

[ARIZE]

@Uchi Mata

It's to easy you in, like an introduction to whats goin to happen. Same for the last round...it helps the spectators relax before goin back home, have a nice quiet night...It's has nothing to do with the gambling, which doesn't influence the way Nak Muays fight, ans isn't a big part of the MT scene...

 

[Uchi Mata]

@Uchi Mata

It's to easy you in, like an introduction to whats goin to happen. Same for the last round...it helps the spectators relax before goin back home, have a nice quiet night...It's has nothing to do with the gambling, which doesn't influence the way Nak Muays fight, ans isn't a big part of the MT scene...

I know why they do it. Gambling, the need to not go balls to the wall 100% of the time so they can fight every week, etc. But whatever the reason, in a sport like boxing or MMA a much greater % of your ring time is spent actually fighting as hard as you can than in Muay Thai. Of course, you also don't see guys with 400 boxing or MMA fights, and when you used to see guys with 400 boxing fights, a lot of their fights look like Muay Thai fights in the sense that they take a lot of rounds off and only engage when it's crucial to determining the fight outcome.

 

[Uchi Mata]

They definitely aren't too bladed. Both keep their feet very well positioned. Tyson would square up when he was really opening up, but he started in a similar foot position to the other guys and didn't square up until he had the opponent hurt or on the defensive. Even then, that style isn't gonna work for you if you aren't blessed with the same speed, power and explosiveness of Tyson. Whereas the foot positioning and techniques of Loma and Cotto will work for anyone regardless of physical attributes or style.

I squared up too much against a pro last night in sparring (having foolishly asked him to go harder in preparation for my fight in a month) and caught a knee right under the sternum that left me dry heaving on the mat for two minutes. Don't square up kids, it's the devil's foot alignment.

 

[ARIZE]

Personally, I'm ok with them goin light on the last round once it's clear who's the winner. I've experienced it more than once in both ways... and even if you're loosing but you still believe you might steal the fight with a knockout, it's more of a form of respect than anything else. I wont try to steal the win against a better fighter, you wont continue to hurt me.
I understand that some may not agree with it, and want to see a fighter try until the last minute... but those guys probably don't understand what it is to fight every 2 weeks.

Funny thing is I've also experienced it often in TKD... but there, it's a bit different. You usually win buy points, and knock outs are rare. So at the end of the second round, if the gap is big, there is no need to fight hard, you wont change the outcome. And usually it's a tournament format, so the winner has to keep some steam, and avoid injuries for later. And since it's a 9x9 open arena, it's easy to avoid your opponent. You may get some point deducted from not fighting, or getting out of bounds, but they wont be enough to matter once you're way ahead...

Now for the first 2 rounds, that's a huge discussion, specially since gambling is the prime reason. I'm just used to it by now. And it's funny to see it in some place where gambling has no part of it, like Europe etc. Personally, i prefer a 3 round fight, with the 2 first ones full action, and the last one depending on how the fight went. I used to fight hard until the last sec... but now i accept the logic of: If you proved that you are better than me in the first rounds, i wont steal your win.

But whatever the reason, in a sport like boxing or MMA a much greater % of your ring time is spent actually fighting as hard as you can than in Muay Thai.

I'm not sure i agree with that...And this time it's not just to make fun of those arts.

In boxing:
First of all, you see very often some rounds where the pace drops fully. You also often see the first rounds, been about trying to find distance, rhythm...lots of jabs with no intention to connect, feints etc...
Also, it's very often you will find boxers who's entire style is about winning by points. So they have no intention to go hard as you said. They just go fast. You wont see that in MT (not talking about world championships, and even less American MT). Every strike in MT must do damage to score.
So when you have those kind of fighters, you don't have: "a much greater % of your ring time is spent actually fighting as hard as you can"
And lastly MT is better than Boxing.

In MMA:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahhahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaahhahahahahahahhahaha...

 

[Uchi Mata]

It's true that boxers use early rounds to feel each other out, but it's never as lazy looking as R1-2 in a MT fight. And I've never sparred with a pro boxer who didn't throw every strike with bad intentions, even if they were guys who mostly won by points. Pro boxers hit so goddamn hard it's difficult to overstate. It was a huge shock to me the first time I sparred one having only sparring with MT guys who hit you stiff, but nothing like that.

You know, in WWI there were a sizable contingent of generals who thought that guns couldn't really replace the bayonet charge. They made fun of the generals who relied on shooting their enemies as being unmanly and disinterested in glory. Of course, in the war the guys without machine guns just got mowed down whenever they bayonet charged the fixed positions. I guess it was glorious, but they were still all dead.

That's you in MMA against a blast double.

 

[ARIZE]

I guess it was glorious, but they were still all dead.

That's good enough for me...

I'm having a doubt, if you can remind me, the expressions: lay n pray, wall n stall, blankets...were invented to describe what kind of exciting fighters? Strikers or grapplers?
Because the discussion we are having, is about what is more boring, a MT fight, with 3 out of 5 rounds boring, or any MMA fight where a grappler is involved...


Now about boxing. I'm not saying boxer don't hit hard, and even those who go for points know how to. And specially if you compare a power punch from a boxer and a Nak Muay, obviously the boxer hits harder... but i will stay on my position that some boxers don't hit hard, because they don't have too.
The actual best boxer, with a 49-0 record, is a point fighter who is considered buy a lot of boxing fans as boring. Even if personally I enjoy his fights.
Now about you sparring a pro boxer...you know it's not fair to compare sparings... because in boxing it's ok to spar hard as fak. But not in MT. I dont know your experience, but the only way to really feel the difference is to have a 5round fight with a pro Nak Muay, vs a 10 round boxing match with a point boxer of the same caliber.
Personally i prefer to get hit by point punches over power elbows and knees.

 

[a guy]

That's good enough for me...

I'm having a doubt, if you can remind me, the expressions: lay n pray, wall n stall, blankets...were invented to describe what kind of exciting fighters? Strikers or grapplers?
Because the discussion we are having, is about what is more boring, a MT fight, with 3 out of 5 rounds boring, or any MMA fight where a grappler is involved...


Now about boxing. I'm not saying boxer don't hit hard, and even those who go for points know how to. And specially if you compare a power punch from a boxer and a Nak Muay, obviously the boxer hits harder... but i will stay on my position that some boxers don't hit hard, because they don't have too.
The actual best boxer, with a 49-0 record, is a point fighter who is considered buy a lot of boxing fans as boring. Even if personally I enjoy his fights.
Now about you sparring a pro boxer...you know it's not fair to compare sparings... because in boxing it's ok to spar hard as fak. But not in MT. I dont know your experience, but the only way to really feel the difference is to have a 5round fight with a pro Nak Muay, vs a 10 round boxing match with a point boxer of the same caliber.
Personally i prefer to get hit by point punches over power elbows and knees.

Don't forget ground n pound.

Few things are more entertaining than a man's head getting dribbled on the mat like a basketball...unless you're the basketball.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That's good enough for me...

I'm having a doubt, if you can remind me, the expressions: lay n pray, wall n stall, blankets...were invented to describe what kind of exciting fighters? Strikers or grapplers?
Because the discussion we are having, is about what is more boring, a MT fight, with 3 out of 5 rounds boring, or any MMA fight where a grappler is involved...


Now about boxing. I'm not saying boxer don't hit hard, and even those who go for points know how to. And specially if you compare a power punch from a boxer and a Nak Muay, obviously the boxer hits harder... but i will stay on my position that some boxers don't hit hard, because they don't have too.
The actual best boxer, with a 49-0 record, is a point fighter who is considered buy a lot of boxing fans as boring. Even if personally I enjoy his fights.
Now about you sparring a pro boxer...you know it's not fair to compare sparings... because in boxing it's ok to spar hard as fak. But not in MT. I dont know your experience, but the only way to really feel the difference is to have a 5round fight with a pro Nak Muay, vs a 10 round boxing match with a point boxer of the same caliber.
Personally i prefer to get hit by point punches over power elbows and knees.

I don't think it's fair to say Floyd doesn't hit hard. He doesn't sell out to KO people, and it's pretty damn hard to KO really good boxers. But the way he starched Hatton...hard to say he doesn't have pop.

I'll have to take your word for it on which is worse, fighting 10 rounds against a pro boxer or 5 against a pro NM. I haven't done either. I've been dropped by knees to the body from pro Nak Muay, and I've been dropped by punches from pro boxers (though low level pros in both cases). Both were pretty awful, though the knees are typically worse.

As for whether MMA is more boring than Muay Thai, yeah, it often is. In general I'd rather watch a generic Muay Thai fight than a generic MMA fight. But that wasn't what we were talking about, we were discussing in which you worked harder. And those grappling exchanges, even if they look boring to non-fighters, destroy your energy. Both guys are working super hard in those cage clinches even when it doesn't look like much is happening. I can rest in MT sparring in a way that I really can't in MMA. The only sport I've ever done that taxed my energy more than MMA were Judo and wrestling, because there's almost literally no let up during a match in those style of grappling.

 

[ARIZE]

But that wasn't what we were talking about, we were discussing in which you worked harder.

I still don't agree. I've seen a lot of mma fights in which the guys don't work hard at all, and they wake up the last 10 seconds of the round, when they hear the double clap, to try to steal the decision. And I'm not talking about grapplers only. You also see strikers look at each other for 5 min...


I was about to talk about my personal experiences, but i realize i still don't like to give details about me on the internet, so i wont make for a good argumentation...
But if i had, you would have seen the truth and why MT is the only real fighting art, and that MMA sucks and that grapplers suck even more...

 

[Uchi Mata]

I still don't agree. I've seen a lot of mma fights in which the guys don't work hard at all, and they wake up the last 10 seconds of the round, when they hear the double clap, to try to steal the decision. And I'm not talking about grapplers only. You also see strikers look at each other for 5 min...


I was about to talk about my personal experiences, but i realize i still don't like to give details about me on the internet, so i wont make for a good argumentation...
But if i had, you would have seen the truth and why MT is the only real fighting art, and that MMA sucks and that grapplers suck even more...

You're almost certainly more accomplished at striking than I am, and I get not wanting to divulge details on the internet, so I won't argue your point on whether boxing or MT hurts worse.

However, as a grappler who loves nothing more in MMA than to ragdoll and choke the people who whip my ass during striking, I'll just say that just like people who have only grappled wrongly assume they would be able to easily handle strikers with Gracie body locks, strikers who don't respect grappling (even if you don't like it) are seriously deluded. Nothing makes you feel more powerless than fighting against a really good grappler when you don't know what you're doing. If a novice sparring a good striker is confusion and pain, a novice rolling with a good grappler is slow, inexorable drowning.

 

[a guy]

You're almost certainly more accomplished at striking than I am, and I get not wanting to divulge details on the internet, so I won't argue your point on whether boxing or MT hurts worse.

However, as a grappler who loves nothing more in MMA than to ragdoll and choke the people who whip my ass during striking, I'll just say that just like people who have only grappled wrongly assume they would be able to easily handle strikers with Gracie body locks, strikers who don't respect grappling (even if you don't like it) are seriously deluded. Nothing makes you feel more powerless than fighting against a really good grappler when you don't know what you're doing. If a novice sparring a good striker is confusion and pain, a novice rolling with a good grappler is slow, inexorable drowning.

Pure strikers are just salty they'd get pounded into the dirt by a high school wrestler in a real fight.

 

[Kickzilla]

Hm a part two is a good idea. I'll see what I can come up with.

Yes, glad you noticed that. Pivoting is a hugely important skill. Pivots can be used to step around a charging opponent, to turn an opponent in the clinch, to get your hips away at an angle when sprawling, to set up your own angles to attack with punches, kicks, takedowns and clinch entries, to keep track of your opponent and to cut him off. Pivoting is possibly the most undertrained skill in any martial art. Learning to do it correctly--without crossing the feet, turning away from the opponent or standing straight up, makes a massive difference in pretty much all aspects of your game.

Stepping back is absolutely necessary. The danger is that if you move straight back too much you'll either run into a barrier or you'll get overwhelmed by a straight blitz. However, no single movement protects you from every single attack other than a simple step back. There's no technique that can hit you if you step out of it's range. Not taking more than two steps back before changing directions is a great rule of thumb, but even then that's just a cue. If I'm trying to bait you in to attack my head, I may lean forward and take multiple small steps back in a row. The key is to remember the reason behind that guideline, which is to make sure you aren't being cornered or walked down.

Yeah good point having a rule of thumb constantly adhered to can be just as much a limitation in not adapting to your opponent, and being flexible tactically. Movement having purpose is part of the equation of moving efficiently as well.

So I've another dumb oddly specific question lol, and anyone else feel free to chime in..is it safe to side-step to the outside of an incoming right hand? Like from an orthodox vs. orthodox perspective, side stepping to the left of that incoming punch. Reason I ask is one because I suck at side stepping (not circling but..specifically stepping laterally in response to an attack).

I'm better at stepping to my right (I'm a rightie), but not so to my left. With circling and pivoting I don't have this issue but I feel like being able to side step for evasion would add more to my footwork. I guess what I'm trying to think of is how side steps can be reactive evasive steps that then turn into a pivot or provide momentum to keep circling while simultaneously providing defense.

 

[ARIZE]

strikers who don't respect grappling (even if you don't like it) are seriously deluded.

I really believe in the efficiency of grappling in MMA/Fight... I only say in that thread that grapplers are often boring when they do only lay n' pray or wall n' stall, as much as the first 2 rounds in a traditional MT match. Specially on lesser organization, since the bigger events tend to sign "exciting" fighters....

As for delusion, honestly i think it's more in the grapplers side...They often think that with some weeks of striking, they are the shit and can compete in boxing/KB. I've never met a striker who thinks that after a month of TD/TDD they can go compete with D1 wrestlers, or go to BJJ comps.
They also don't understand/realize, when we train mma, that we the strikers dont go a 100%, since it's just a training, sparring session. But nothing stop them from going full power on the takedowns...so obviously they have good success on sparring days...But when the smokers comes, to a lot of them, it's a shock. The stories like Brock Lesnar are not so uncommon.

Pure strikers are just salty they'd get pounded into the dirt by a high school wrestler in a real fight.

Are you lost little kid? This thread is about footwork and how great MT is... Why you come here and troll, messing with OP's thread?

 

[Uchi Mata]

As for delusion, honestly i think it's more in the grapplers side...They often think that with some weeks of striking, they are the shit and can compete in boxing/KB. I've never met a striker who thinks that after a month of TD/TDD they can go compete with D1 wrestlers, or go to BJJ comps.
They also don't understand/realize, when we train mma, that we the strikers dont go a 100%, since it's just a training, sparring session. But nothing stop them from going full power on the takedowns...so obviously they have good success on sparring days...But when the smokers comes, to a lot of them, it's a shock. The stories like Brock Lesnar are not so uncommon.

I think that's probably true. For one thing, the history of MMA started with grapplers who couldn't strike beating up strikers who couldn't grapple, and that history casts a long shadow even if things aren't nearly so simple. There are a lot of deluded BJJ guys who still seem to think Royce Gracie had the complete answer on dealing with strikers using only BJJ.

As a grappler with a long history of non-competitive striking training and about 9 months of real Muay Thai, I'm about to take my first amateur fight (Sept 2nd), so I guess I'll find out how hard it really is. The pros I spar with definitely beat the shit out of me, but that's to be expected, and I do all right with the other amateurs, so hopefully I'm not overly deluded as to how good (or not) I really am.

 

[MaxMMA]

I've met, and trained extensively with both sides of this spectrum. Strikers, despite all the evidence to the contrary saying shit like: How is he going to get in on me to shoot when I'm putting jabs in his face?

Grapplers that are still living in the early 90s that think a bjj blue belt will be able to bypass the clinch of a MT fighter with their crappy shot from way outside.

It's all about balance between the styles, with a strong emphasis on wrestling if you want to be well prepared for a MMA/self defense situation.

 

[ARIZE]

@MaxMMA

I'm not talking when the fight is under both rules (strike/grapple). I agree with you, when that's the case delusion of efficiency is equally shared (and probably a bit more on the strikers side). Hell, I'm the first to say to any grappler that he will get my knee in their mouth if he tries to take me down, before we do any sparring...and then i usually spend 15min trying to get a fatass off me.

But I'm talking when they think they can compete in the others guys discipline against pros, after having just done some basic training. I've met a lot of grapplers like that. And the delusion ends when you show them a video of you sparring them, vs a video of you fighting. They realize how "soft" you were goin against them.
Or most of the times, when they do their first smoker/ammy fight and they try to bang against a real striker. You can even see those kind of delusion on the highest level of MMA... but you don't often see the opposite... you wont see strikers changing their entire gameplan and spam takedowns against experienced grapplers...
And it's not only about winning/loosing... it's also the shock of what a strike with real bad intention feels. They are not prepared for that, and don't really want to listen about it.

That's my main problem...they act like real tough guys because they come with a hard training background, but that doesn't prepare them to get hit...

@Uchi Mata

Great man, good luck for your fight. 9 months is a fair amount of time before a first fight. And since you are already experienced in competition, you have an advantage against first timers. If you go against another beginner/amateur, there is no reason for you not to think you will do great. That's not delusion...If you'd go against a pro, that's another story.