Froch vs. Groves - a study in depending on technique vs. not.

The rematch is on for May 31st. Let's see if toughness saves Froch again, or if Groves comes in even better prepared than last time.
 
Awesome fight, awesome breakdown.



By any chance can somebody link the thread with the original digger diagram and getting underneath/better positioning? I guess I missed that one. Idk what to type in the search bar lol.
 
I first posted it in the "Training of a Viking" thread.
 
Recently ESPN has doing this "Boxcino" tournament, and there was a guy in the Middleweight division who I remembered around here. Young kid, physically strong, when he was here at Tocco's he was 14-0 with like 12 KO's. Also got his hands on a regional Title. But immediately something stood out when he sparred with our guy Anthony Lenk who was a Welterweight at the time. Check out just the one round:



3 times he hit the deck. One of them purely from poor balance. So in this Boxcino tournament, in the first round he draws a Ukranian. Immediately I thought two things: 1) A lot of Amateur experience. 2) VERY solid fundamentals.

Take a look:

 
WOW! that is shockingly bad

Fort has some of the worst weight distribution i have ever seen. He's waaaay to front foot heavy. Almost every single knockdown in both vids happens as he pivots his rear leg to either jab or throw a rear sided punch. In these moments his body weight is only supported by the lead foot, so any solid shot to the body or head hurts him or sends him reeling.

another byproduct of his bad balance is the fact that fort leads with his face, and does so while moving straight down the middle(as seen at 10:40 of fight). This amplifies the power of his opponents jab and really makes the guy (Kopylenko) look like a killer. Atlas summed it up perfectly at the 11:00 mark.
 
Yes, all Kopylenko had to do, was be good technically. Fort did half the work for him. No checking of distance before throwing big punches, no challenging for advantageous positions, in fact the FIRST tiny up-jab that caught him leaning down right into it hurt him bad. That Kopylenko demonstrates good form similar to what was stated about groves in the opening post made this bout look far far easier than it should have been according to the paperwork.
 
P.S. - A lot of people have asked me over time about watching/analyzing bouts. With this thread you're seeing a bout through my eyes. Should give you an idea of what I look for when I watch any bout. Or even when I study opposing fighters.

So from reading the initial post the things you look for are:
Who takes control becoming Digger A
The stances I.e I know your a advocate of "looking threatening" with the lead hand causing them to hesitate
Lead Foot Pointing towards opponent at all times
How they fight on the inside? I.e You've said in the past putting the ear muffs on is lazy and not an effective inside defence!

This is a very general list of things picked up by me someone with limited technical striking knowledge but that's what I can remember from reading!

Is there one most important factor or does it vary from fight to fight?

Sorry if this is a dumb Q
 
Recently ESPN has doing this "Boxcino" tournament, and there was a guy in the Middleweight division who I remembered around here. Young kid, physically strong, when he was here at Tocco's he was 14-0 with like 12 KO's. Also got his hands on a regional Title. But immediately something stood out when he sparred with our guy Anthony Lenk who was a Welterweight at the time. Check out just the one round:



What's going on with Anthony Lenk? I see he lost his last two and only fought once in 2013. He looks very good in that sparring video.
 
So from reading the initial post the things you look for are:
Who takes control becoming Digger A
The stances I.e I know your a advocate of "looking threatening" with the lead hand causing them to hesitate
Lead Foot Pointing towards opponent at all times
How they fight on the inside? I.e You've said in the past putting the ear muffs on is lazy and not an effective inside defence!

This is a very general list of things picked up by me someone with limited technical striking knowledge but that's what I can remember from reading!

Is there one most important factor or does it vary from fight to fight?

Sorry if this is a dumb Q

Looking threatening, but making use of the initiative it gives. Looking isn't enough, I want to see that the opponent actually feels threatened. And yes, how they behave inside. There's no one more important factor than anything else, but it's how they all fit together.

What's going on with Anthony Lenk? I see he lost his last two and only fought once in 2013. He looks very good in that sparring video.

He's done. He ran into managerial trouble after the loss to Williams (which was a very close fight that was changed to a 6 rounder instead of 8 2 weeks before the fight, Anthony was coming on strong at the end but it wasn't enough). His manager fired his trainer, so he semi-retired then. It took him a while to get rid of the manager, and then as a sort of last go he fought Vasquez in Texas, everyone who saw the fight say Anthony won it, but he was in the other guy's backyard. He's now retired and works for Amtrack in NY.
 
He's done. He ran into managerial trouble after the loss to Williams (which was a very close fight that was changed to a 6 rounder instead of 8 2 weeks before the fight, Anthony was coming on strong at the end but it wasn't enough). His manager fired his trainer, so he semi-retired then. It took him a while to get rid of the manager, and then as a sort of last go he fought Vasquez in Texas, everyone who saw the fight say Anthony won it, but he was in the other guy's backyard. He's now retired and works for Amtrack in NY.

Sorry to hear that. Well, if he's doing well then there's no need to be sorry, but he looked like he had some potential.
 
That, he did.
 
Funny that this thread was revived. As soon as the fight started and both fighters started squared off i immediately thought of sinisters digger analogy.

I might be wrong but i don't think Groves did have the better position throughout the fight. The only noticeable difference was that Froch fought with his lead shoulder higher up to account for Groves right hand.

The difference between the two men is mental (ring IQ, temperament, toughness). Groves movement was very wasteful and he fought anxiously, those two things and Frochs body attack caused him to physically tire and i think groves was also a bit mentally fatigued. I think Groves beat himself just as much as Carl beat him.
 
Groves had much better positioning in the first rounds of the first fight. That said, youre right about why he lost. Froch has made an entire career out of making men FEEL inferior to him, who skill-wise are not.
 
Carl is gritty as hell.

It's been a while since everyone here in the UK was so hyped to see a domestic fight between two british boxers & they didn't disappoint - it's been a while since I've seen such interest or anticipation for a fight by the general public - many people who don't necessarily watch boxing tuned in for this, the 80000 audience attendance at Wembley was pretty crazy. I think that the Northern-Southern stereotype divide here in the UK played over in how fans here in London supported Groves (the local boy) & booed Froch when he entered - kind of hilarious to see something like that surface from some fans lol, especially when it's only restricted to banter.

I think the next big domestic matchup that could potentially generate the kind of interest Froch-Groves did is Kell Brook vs Amir Khan - many people here are interested in seeing that fight happen, given the bad blood between them, hope Eddie Hearn can make that happen - would be a great thing for British boxing.


Couldn't help but feel for Groves, wonder where he'll go from here after two losses to Froch.


EDIT: I was just thinking 80000 people in attendance - I can't think of an MMA event here in the UK that has nearly even generated a 1/3 of that amount. Wonder if some day MMA will be that huge here.
 
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Man I hated watching that fight. Froch just has so many things he does incorrectly.
 
He won in spite of them being incorrect, not because of them. Also did anyone else find his shadowboxing before he entered the ring sort of embarrassing? He moved so awkwardly for a professional athlete.
 
Looking threatening, but making use of the initiative it gives. Looking isn't enough, I want to see that the opponent actually feels threatened. And yes, how they behave inside. There's no one more important factor than anything else, but it's how they all fit together..

Can I ask what you actually look for on the inside then? If those are the things you for then I know there's a thread you made on stance/positioning of lead hand so I'll check that for that.
Don't think there's one on infighting so what do you look for? Is it mainly defence qualities, I know you dislike earmuffs like Groves did against the ropes in 5-6. Who are the best in fighters? Someone like Mayweather?

ALSO
How did you score this fight? Based on the criteria I know you look for I saw Groves being the digger and catching Froch with good upward jabs in first 4 Rounds with Froch blitzing on occasions, coming in feet standing square and not really landing anything!
I had Groves up 4-0

Then again looking for things that you say I gave Froch the next two based on him getting the better work in on the ropes and Groves just 'earmuffed' up instead of using intelligent defence and counters, So I had it 4-2 Groves after 6!
Was very surprised when Jim Watt 's card came up and he had it 5-1 Froch and even more so that he gave Froch ROUND 1?!? I only remember Carl landing 1 punch in round 1!!

Then I thought Groves won 7 and was winning 8 Until the KO!
 
Can I ask what you actually look for on the inside then? If those are the things you for then I know there's a thread you made on stance/positioning of lead hand so I'll check that for that.
Don't think there's one on infighting so what do you look for? Is it mainly defence qualities, I know you dislike earmuffs like Groves did against the ropes in 5-6. Who are the best in fighters? Someone like Mayweather?

ALSO
How did you score this fight? Based on the criteria I know you look for I saw Groves being the digger and catching Froch with good upward jabs in first 4 Rounds with Froch blitzing on occasions, coming in feet standing square and not really landing anything!
I had Groves up 4-0

Then again looking for things that you say I gave Froch the next two based on him getting the better work in on the ropes and Groves just 'earmuffed' up instead of using intelligent defence and counters, So I had it 4-2 Groves after 6!
Was very surprised when Jim Watt 's card came up and he had it 5-1 Froch and even more so that he gave Froch ROUND 1?!? I only remember Carl landing 1 punch in round 1!!

Then I thought Groves won 7 and was winning 8 Until the KO!

I also had Groves 4-3 or maybe even 5-2 going into the 8th. Rounds were close, but Groves seemed to land the cleaner shots at a tad higher volume. I found it very odd as well how, Jim Watts is his name?, had it 5-1 Froch at that point. The skysports broadcasting team was only talking about Froch. Paulie was the only one commenting on how close the rounds were and that Groves was successful at times.

Anyway, I'm glad Froch won though, was rooting for him, but he looked stiff even for his standards. Helluva punch that ended it though! That's a real hard nosed veteran for you.
 

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