Fourth Circuit upholds block of Immigration Order; 9th Agrees

Your first paragraph is still not quite on point, because it's not a necessary premise that differences in wealth shouldn't be allowed to impact political advocacy at all: the premise from which the conclusion is discharged is that achieving the most exclusionary ends pursued for the most exclusionary reasons cannot be allowed for issues that affect society.


Achieving the most exclusionary ends pursued for the most exclusionary reasons is a phrase that has no meaning in the context of wealth differences. And as a political position, if society democratically votes for the most exclusionary ends for the most exclusionary reasons then either you respect society's ability to self-govern or you don't.

There's a smattering of paternalism in this idea that the wealthy will run roughshod over the poor in terms of political speech and the direction of the country. But it's not wealth that most limits political advocacy, it's interest and time. And if the poor want something badly enough, they can outvote the rich. Unless they are so stupid that they can't decide what they think is best for their vision of the country.

Regarding wealth redistribution, that particular argument unfortunately gets a bit obfuscated because we're focusing on a very narrow issue: if we broaden the scope a bit, my ideal argument is that there's a whole bunch of reasons we should redistribute wealth, and that doing so has very nice properties when it comes to this specific issue in that it essentially dissolves it. So the philosophical underpinning behind that isn't to combat this specific issue with redistribution, but that it's holistically a better solution compared to having a bunch of laws trying to address this specifically.

It's not a better solution since it's premised on impacting political advocacy. Careful wealth allocation has plenty of positive arguments in society but parity of political speech is not one of them.


Because of the above, I could in principle dismiss your second paragraph, but I won't. What possible argument is there? Equality of opportunity would be the most obvious one. And regarding your example I personally wouldn't have been upset, nor do I think it's brutal: given that specific scenario I would have proposed we pay together for some space to print a debate between the two of us, but that's a tangent. To deepen the example a bit, that model you've described is indeed adversarial and would be disliked by a fair few, but that doesn't mean there aren't less adversarial models one could use. For instance, if I wish to run an ad I have to pay a monthly fee, and get a spot that's on rotation with others who pay the same fee. Essentially, a subscription model where we in turn get to advocate for our positions where we effectively subsidize each other. That could be a general law: if you want to run a political ad in some media you have to join this pool where you and others share the same restrictions and pay for each other. That could then be regulated as appropriate (which is a big topic).

But you're not arguing equality of opportunity. You're arguing an equality of outcomes. You're arguing that the end result of the various efforts should be relatively equal time advocating their political speech. Which is just a dressed up way of restricting political speech. It says that Advocate X can't speak as much as he/she wants if Advocate Y is unable to match it financially.

All equality of opportunity requires is that the government does not limit someone. People can limit each other as they so choose. It's the marketplace of ideas. Sell your goods to the best of your ability. If they're of quality, you will find customers.
 
Achieving the most exclusionary ends pursued for the most exclusionary reasons is a phrase that has no meaning in the context of wealth differences. And as a political position, if society democratically votes for the most exclusionary ends for the most exclusionary reasons then either you respect society's ability to self-govern or you don't.

It's not conceived in the context of wealth difference, but it's certainly applicable, so I reject your argument that it's meaningless. Additionally, it's obviously intended to be appended to what is considered the fundamental democratic premises and not to override them, meaning it's entirely permissible to do so through a democratic vote.

There's a smattering of paternalism in this idea that the wealthy will run roughshod over the poor in terms of political speech and the direction of the country. But it's not wealth that most limits political advocacy, it's interest and time. And if the poor want something badly enough, they can outvote the rich. Unless they are so stupid that they can't decide what they think is best for their vision of the country.

There's a smattering of paternalism in quite a lot of places, notably in the idea of representative democracy itself. So I don't think you can carry this objection consistently. As for the rest, we've already been over that.

It's not a better solution since it's premised on impacting political advocacy. Careful wealth allocation has plenty of positive arguments in society but parity of political speech is not one of them.

What? I literally said that it's not premised on that. That's a beneficial side effect. And it's not about parity of political speech, it's about political speech not being owned by someone to the exclusion of the greater population. Preventing the most extreme disparity is not the same as ensuring parity.

But you're not arguing equality of opportunity. You're arguing an equality of outcomes. You're arguing that the end result of the various efforts should be relatively equal time advocating their political speech. Which is just a dressed up way of restricting political speech. It says that Advocate X can't speak as much as he/she wants if Advocate Y is unable to match it financially.

Not really, though. The opportunity is to advocate, the outcome is how many are swayed by that. And it's not restricting speech, it's balancing: it's not that you can't say some things, it's that you can't overpower the rest in terms of content. That doesn't have to be applied to all media, either, just where it's considered critical. Besides, the example was just a tangent, and a tangent to an example that isn't relevant to my argument.

All equality of opportunity requires is that the government does not limit someone. People can limit each other as they so choose. It's the marketplace of ideas. Sell your goods to the best of your ability. If they're of quality, you will find customers.

That's incorrect, as equality of opportunity is actually a right to not be discriminated against. So in principle the government should intervene if you aren't given a fair shake by others in the areas where equality of opportunity is seen as a right. For instance, it's generally illegal in Norway to not hire someone because they are pregnant, and it's illegal to even ask someone if they have plans of starting a family in an interview.
 
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