Forget top 5 GOAT, what about top TEN ?

[Sapp]

What are you talking about? I can agree the DC case is hard to prove, since it was not a failed test (most to prove a point), but how is BJ any different? Because it is ok to fail a test once?

Please explain your issue with DC's T/E ratio. I posted in response to you earlier, making the case that it was well within the normal range.

 

[benebox]

Probably not a very good list but of the top of my head....

Fedor
Aldo
GSP
Cruz
Nogueira
Hendo
Wanderlei
Edgar
Rampage
Dillashaw

*In fact, take Hendo out for being a cheat and add Rua or Machida.

 

[moreorless87]

The problem is I think that beyond the top half dozen guys(Fedor, Nog, Jones, Anderson, GSP, Aldo) you have a much larger field and how you rank them depends a lot more on personal opinion....

Crocop, JDS, Cormier, Shogun, Wanderlei, Rampage, Chuck, Hendo, Hughes, BJ, Gomi, Edgar, Cruz, Dillashaw, DJ, etc.

 

[thobra]

Please explain your issue with DC's T/E ratio. I posted in response to you earlier, making the case that it was well within the normal range.

Like I said, It was to prove a point. That guys often have odd blood levels or T-levels, but because it is within the "Normal" range according to test criteria, they will pass the test. Even if it is not necesarily normal. I see you like DC, so you will probably defend him no matter what, but I could have used a different example also.

 

[InternetHero]

1. Fedor
2. GSP (keeping in mind I used to be a top rate critic of GSP and still feel burned about the J Hendricks fight. GSP deserves that respect.
3. Silva
4. MM
5. Henderson
6. Sakuraba
7. Jon "Juice me Up" Jones
8. W Silva
9. The Iceman
10. Aldo

 

[F0od]

What are you talking about? I can agree the DC case is hard to prove, since it was not a failed test (most to prove a point), but how is BJ any different? Because it is ok to fail a test once?

He had plastic in his blood. Was he masking? Maybe, but it is not comparable to positive tests for steroids. Cannot imagine you are going to try to debate that.

 

[InternetHero]

I should probably have thrown R. Couture in there around the middle, but blanked out.

 

[F0od]

Like I said, It was to prove a point. That guys often have odd blood levels or T-levels, but because it is within the "Normal" range according to test criteria, they will pass the test. Even if it is not necesarily normal. I see you like DC, so you will probably defend him no matter what, but I could have used a different example also.

Did you even read the post? He was quoting, "Don Catlin, an anti-doping expert and former head of the UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory, and endocrinologist Jeffrey Brown, who runs a private practice in Houston."

 

[Sapp]

Like I said, It was to prove a point. That guys often have odd blood levels or T-levels, but because it is within the "Normal" range according to test criteria, they will pass the test. Even if it is not necesarily normal. I see you like DC, so you will probably defend him no matter what, but I could have used a different example also.

It wasn't a suspicious test result. Slightly lower T-level, but still easily normal. As opposed to Jones whose T/E ratio was drastically divergent from the expected values.

I'm a DC fan, true, so I'll try and argue against attempts to cast aspersions on him with no proof of any kind. If he starts failing drug tests, however, I'm not going to try and defend him, or use the cowardly "they're all on steroids" excuse.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

Fedor
Big Nog
Werdum
Vovchanchyn
Cain
JDS
Stipe
Crocop
Couture
Barnett

 

[thobra]

He had plastic in his blood. Was he masking? Maybe, but it is not comparable to positive tests for steroids. Cannot imagine you are going to try to debate that.

BJ is my favourite fighter of all time. We are going to make guys that we don't like to be guilty, and guys we like just made a mistake?

IVs are prohibited by WADA in all sports because: IVs can be used to change blood test results (such as hematocrit where EPO or blood doping is being used), mask urine test results (by dilution) or by administering prohibited substances in a way that will more quickly be cleared from the body in order to beat an anti-doping test. They will also alter biological passports.
How different is this from Lesnar or Cyborgs failed test?

I knew IVs were illegal, I am sure you knew it, and BJPenn.com knew it. How did BJ and Jackson and their doctors miss it?

 

[F0od]

BJ is my favourite fighter of all time. We are going to make guys that we don't like to be guilty, and guys we like just made a mistake?

IVs are prohibited by WADA in all sports because: IVs can be used to change blood test results (such as hematocrit where EPO or blood doping is being used), mask urine test results (by dilution) or by administering prohibited substances in a way that will more quickly be cleared from the body in order to beat an anti-doping test. They will also alter biological passports.
How different is this from Lesnar or Cyborgs failed test?

I knew IVs were illegal, I am sure you knew it, and BJPenn.com knew it. How did BJ and Jackson and their doctors miss it?

Sorry, once again a positive test for IV is not = 2 positive tests for steroids. I shouldn't have to explain this to you, and I'm not going to.

BJ was on my list once upon a time, but he is not now and hasn't been for a while. If I found him on my list and realized he had an IV test I would remove him. You're investing way too much in this, when you look stupid on several other fronts in this thread that you haven't manned up to.

I was giving guys props for keeping a couple cheaters off their lists, not saying every fighter on their lists were legit.

 

[thobra]

It wasn't a suspicious test result. Slightly lower T-level, but still easily normal. As opposed to Jones whose T/E ratio was drastically divergent from the expected values.

I'm a DC fan, true, so I'll try and argue against attempts to cast aspersions on him with no proof of any kind. If he starts failing drug tests, however, I'm not going to try and defend him, or use the cowardly "they're all on steroids" excuse.

Jones levels were that of a little girl, so comparing it will obviously make DCs seem normal.. But a pro athlete at that level, that has testosterone in the lower range of the normal.. Wouldn't you think a pro athlete was at the absolute upper levels of legal testosterone? Certainly not lower than you and me?

Like I said, I was just trying to prove a point. Usada has these cases every day, and I am sure many are much worse than DCs, but still just inside the "normal" (I just used DC as an example). It is obvious they did smething that altered their levels, but they still just passed the test, and is crowned the greatest ever, while others just go outside the test levels, and we erase all their acomplishments.

 

[Sapp]

Jones levels were that of a little girl, so comparing it will obviously make DCs seem normal.. But a pro athlete at that level, that has testosterone in the lower range of the normal.. Wouldn't you think a pro athlete was at the absolute upper levels of legal testosterone? Certainly not lower than you and me?

Like I said, I was just trying to prove a point. Usada has these cases every day, and I am sure many are much worse than DCs, but still just inside the "normal" (I just used DC as an example). It is obvious they did smething that altered their levels, but they still just passed the test, and is crowned the greatest ever, while others just go outside the test levels, and we erase all their acomplishments.

Cutting weight lowers testosterone somewhat (and DC has extremely brutal cuts). So does excess bodyfat (something DC definitely has). Also, seems like you've backtracked pretty hard from talking about "DC having testosterone of a little girl". Now you're talking about it being slightly lower, but still average range.

It's not "obvious" at all in most cases. Certainly not in extremely marginal cases like DC. If the point you wanted to make was manipulation of testosterone levels to suspicious degrees, this was a poor example. I think you were just misinformed about DC's T/E levels.

 

[thobra]

Sorry, once again a positive test for IV is not = 2 positive tests for steroids. I shouldn't have to explain this to you, and I'm not going to.

BJ was on my list once upon a time, but he is not now and hasn't been for a while. If I found him on my list and realized he had an IV test I would remove him. You're investing way too much in this, when you look stupid on several other fronts in this thread that you haven't manned up to.

I was giving guys props for keeping a couple cheaters off their lists, not saying every fighter on their lists were legit.

What is so hard to understand? You were making a point out of that BJ failed a plastic test, and I was an idiot for pointing it out. Masking or turning the "process" with blockers or doing steroids is just as illegal, because the IV or the blockers is used because you used steroids first.

 

[george-oli]

Lol at people who still have Anderson and Jones on their lists.

 

[thobra]

Cutting weight lowers testosterone somewhat (and DC has extremely brutal cuts). So does excess bodyfat (something DC definitely has). Also, seems like you've backtracked pretty hard from talking about "DC having testosterone of a little girl". Now you're talking about it being slightly lower, but still average range.

It's not "obvious" at all in most cases. Certainly not in extremely marginal cases like DC. If the point you wanted to make was manipulation of testosterone levels to suspicious degrees, this was a poor example. I think you were just misinformed about DC's T/E levels.

Like I said, "the little girl comment" was to prove a point. Not backtracking at all. DC is just an example that is easy to find, not necesarily the best/worst example.

Cutting weight and having excess body fat might lower the levels slightly, but I doubt it will put a pro athlete below the average male levels. We can pretend it does, and say we have no proof, just like I would like to pretend my favorite fighter BJ was doing some vitamin therapy to get rid of his vertigo.

 

[Sapp]

Like I said, "the little girl comment" was to prove a point. Not backtracking at all. DC is just an example that is easy to find, not necesarily the best/worst example.

Cutting weight and having excess body fat might lower the levels slightly, but I doubt it will put a pro athlete below the average male levels. We can pretend it does, and say we have no proof, just like I would like to pretend my favorite fighter BJ was doing some vitamin therapy to get rid of his vertigo.

DC isn't an easy example to find, because he's not an example of anything aside from test levels which aren't suspicious.

Sounds like you're just speculating with literally zero evidence. For example, endurance athletes often have low testosterone, and overtraining and weight cuts impact it as well. Trying to suggest that it's evidence of PED use by DC is spurious and unfair. There have been suspicious cases, but DC really isn't one of them. Not only is there no proof, but there's also no reasonable grounds for suspicion.

If DC pops I wont be trying to claim he's innocent, but he's entitled to the benefit of the doubt for the time being, and hasn't done anything to cast credible suspicion on himself.

 

[Beerqueer3000]

The lack of Bisping in this thread
Damn

Bisping has 3 top wins in his his UFC career. 2 were close decisions and he was close to being finished 4 times in those 2 fights. I like the guy; but he is not in the running for being GOAT

 

[Mr Wings]

GSP
MM
Fedor
Anderson
Jon Jones
Couture (held UFC titles on and off for over ten years)
Royce
Ken Shamrock
Werdum
Cyborg