Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Sugar Ray Robinson - Who wins?

[Undying Poster]

Contrary to popular belief I've always believed that humans get better with things the longer they do it. One of the beautiful things about us. We evolve. The reason why technology keeps advancing and we become more knowledgeable about everything around us. The problem is in most things especially in boxing fans tend to have a certain respect and love for the past so when a newcomer says they're better than an old timer its blasphemy. Many boxing fans are like that old uncle at a family BBQ that always complains about this generation and how his generation was so much better. It takes years after a boxer retires that he starts getting more appreciated.

You can never say Jesse Owens was faster than Usain Bolt because with sprinting you have world records and we've seen time and time again it keeps getting broken. But we will never know the outcome of these fantasy boxing matches so most will go with Ray Robinson. What we do know is today athletes/coaches have a better understand of nutrition, S&C and overall boxing. Robinson and his team had boxers before him to look up to and learn from whilst Floyd had way more boxers to learn from including Robinson himself.

Robinson was great and did some amazing things but I question the level of competition he fought. Not much footage out there but the footage I've seen looks like they aren't as good as the top fighters of the last 20 or so years. Yes some of Robinsons opponents also did great things and were great within their era and among their competition but not sure how they would do in this era. Just simple things like how would they cut off the ring against someone like Floyd? Would they understand it the way boxers understands it today? The boxers of today have evolved. You'd never find a Lomachenko, Rigondeaux, Mayweather or even a Pacquiao type of fighter back in Robinsons day.

Boxing is an endurance sport that is mainly about skill. Some of the most important things like punching power, chin, and skill aren't enhanced by nutrition and steroids. (OK, punching power maybe is helped by that)

Not to mention guys were better conditioned because they had to go 15 rounds so you can't even act like the sport got better on that front.

By the way, Floyd never innovated anything, his skill set is seen in black and white film, he just did it the best.

I think one thing that isn't mentioned is watching fight footage and how guys can develop game plans these days that old timers didn't do. It seems the old fighters fought on a heavy schedule and adjusted in the ring or after a loss. That's why a lot of great fighters from that era were dropping fights or getting into Draws with nobodies. I know plenty of fighters today would have losses to nobodies if they were fighting every month, sometimes multiple times a month.

I'm not saying black and white = better fighter like a lot of people do, but I have to disagree that Boxing techniques have gotten better or that having better S&C has really helped this particular sport.

Generally you're born with or without a strong chin and punching power and it's difficult to improve either. Technique is the most important part of the sport (which IMO was "figured out" but Robinsons time.) and we know the old guys could go 12 rounds.

So what really has improved?

 

[Sunfish]

Boxing is an endurance sport that is mainly about skill. Some of the most important things like punching power, chin, and skill aren't enhanced by nutrition and steroids. (OK, punching power maybe is helped by that)

Not to mention guys were better conditioned because they had to go 15 rounds so you can't even act like the sport got better on that front.

By the way, Floyd never innovated anything, his skill set is seen in black and white film, he just did it the best.

I think one thing that isn't mentioned is watching fight footage and how guys can develop game plans these days that old timers didn't do. It seems the old fighters fought on a heavy schedule and adjusted in the ring or after a loss. That's why a lot of great fighters from that era were dropping fights or getting into Draws with nobodies. I know plenty of fighters today would have losses to nobodies if they were fighting every month, sometimes multiple times a month.

I'm not saying black and white = better fighter like a lot of people do, but I have to disagree that Boxing techniques have gotten better or that having better S&C has really helped this particular sport.

Generally you're born with or without a strong chin and punching power and it's difficult to improve either. Technique is the most important part of the sport (which IMO was "figured out" but Robinsons time.) and we know the old guys could go 12 rounds.

So what really has improved?

Every other sport in the world has seen progressive improvement through the years. Jack Johnson was having fights of more than 30 rounds. I bet you the were boring as fuck.

 

[Undying Poster]

Every other sport in the world has seen progressive improvement through the years. Jack Johnson was having fights of more than 30 rounds. I bet you the were boring as fuck.

Well they were boring as fuck. I think I caught some on ESPN Classic or YouTube back in the day and Johnson was particularly horrible to watch. If he was in the UFC today, he would be a Wrestler that pins you on the cage and then KO's you whenever you've put up so much resistance that you gassed out.

I did say in my post that by Robinson's time that Boxing was probably figured out. Watching the guys from Johnson's days probably up to the 30s was interesting to watch because it was very different.

 

[kenji goh]

Floyd is a modern athlete with once in a generation talent. He makes some of the old school ATGs like Willie Pep look relatively unimpressive (I know this because I have a cabinet full of Willie Pep dvds).

No one makes Pep look unimpressive, Floyd included.
Pep's footwork and blend of offence and defence is above Mayweather's imo.

If you want a way to contextualize a lot of his wins you can go back and look through the Ring ratings archive to see where most of his opposition was rated when he fought them.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings

He beat elite opposition at 135, 147, 160, and was on his way to soundly beating the lineal 175 pound champion (in a fight that Robinson only weighed 158 pounds in) before almost dying from heat stroke.

You don't hear about Robinson's LW achievement that much (for good reason, I guess, seeing as he was only very briefly there and achieved so much at WW and MW). When he was barely 20 years old he soundly beat Sammy Angott, the #1 rated LW (behind the lineal champion). Five months after the fight, Angott became the lineal LW champion of the world and defended his belt several times (and he also gave Willie Pep the first loss of his career while he was LW champion).

Really informative post man.
I recently watched the fight with Angott. The quality of the video is bad compare to his later fights, but
the difference in his reflexes is apparent. At middleweight he was getting hit very often. It was like his reflexes had been dulled a little.

In his earlier fights Robinson seems faster and sharper.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Boxing is an endurance sport that is mainly about skill. Some of the most important things like punching power, chin, and skill aren't enhanced by nutrition and steroids. (OK, punching power maybe is helped by that)

So what really has improved?

Knowledge, experience and having all the boxers before them in history that they can learn from. Humans get better and better the more they understand anything let alone a sport. Just compare the mobile phones of today to the phones back in 2000.

 

[Seano]

So what really has improved?

I think we understand nutrition a lot better than in some golden eras of boxing. PEDs too.

 

[nac386]

I think we understand nutrition a lot better than in some golden eras of boxing. PEDs too.

I also think there are more people around the world participating, a worldwide amateur system, and more people boxing as a full time professionals. Nutrition, supplementation, the experience of a century in the sport, etc.

Over all, considering all these things, the level of competition must be significantly higher now than in the 1940s. When I watch those old tapes, my eyes tell me that the competition was not always great.

 

[Seano]

I also think there are more people around the world participating, a worldwide amateur system, and more people boxing as a full time professionals. Nutrition, supplementation, the experience of a century in the sport, etc.

Over all, considering all these things, the level of competition must be significantly higher now than in the 1940s. When I watch those old tapes, my eyes tell me that the competition was not always great.

Oh no. They were just so good that they made those guys look bad.



I've said before, I watch Gene Fullmer and I see Provodnikov.

 

[Sir Kicksalot]

Maybe SRR would win but it would be by a decision.

 

[chiefwiggum]

You guys picking Ray Robinson were lucky to be alive to see him in prime form and all I have are these lousy old tapes where he seems quite mortal.

It makes me bummed that im one of the few boxing fans who missed his reign.
I Must gather more old mens opinions so I can accurately compare the 2 . And realize how no boxer can ever be even on par with him on anything, let alone best him.

 

[zapataxiv]

I also think there are more people around the world participating, a worldwide amateur system, and more people boxing as a full time professionals. Nutrition, supplementation, the experience of a century in the sport, etc.

i don't think that statements really true... Boxing has a long history of fighters and champions from around the globe. Lots of places around the globe have had boxing scenes go into decline as well recently, South Korea is one of the first that springs to mind.

as far as a world wide amateur system, it is not without its critics. There are a group of people within boxing who view the system as a necessary evil or even worse a waste of time and view it as a corrupting force in the development of modern boxing.

We would need to see numbers but i would be very surprised if there are a larger number of active full time professional boxers now compared to the 1940's (in the US at least but globally as well).

While the last line sounds true it is not a factual because there is not a codified system for teaching boxing so there is not a solid foundation that is constantly improved on. On the contrary there have been sever loses of boxing elders and a dirty of talent to fill their shoes. For example Eddie Futch boxing legend and trainer of multiple world champions is quoted as saying he would rather watch a guy like Holman Williams shadowbox then other fighters fight. The skillets of these old-timers was not an evolutionary step like Erectus to Sapien.

Nutrition, "Supplementation" is really the only non debatable aspect. But it brings up another aspect and that is we may be able to produce faster stronger champions, but can we also reproduce the same skill and smarts in modern champions. Floyd is one of the best of this era Mostly due to his schooling in an established style but it does fall under the umbrella of what most on here would call old school. Toney is another one he also fights with the Michigan crab and he is considered one of the best defensive fighters of this generation.

Over all, considering all these things, the level of competition must be significantly higher now than in the 1940s. When I watch those old tapes, my eyes tell me that the competition was not always great.

Maybe but there has always been no hopers, overmatched opponents, squash matches, and over the hill champions.

 

[Sunfish]

Near the end of his career srr was fighting people on debut. There are world champions who were fighting people with losing records. How often does that happen now?

 

[zapataxiv]

Near the end of his career srr was fighting people on debut. There are world champions who were fighting people with losing records. How often does that happen now?

well the guy whois considered one of the best boxers of this time period is fighting a guy making his pro debut.... So it does still happen.

also how many modern champions have records of over 100+ fights its a lot fewer then it used to be...

also SRR went on a 91 fight unbeaten streak who else has repeated that in modern times...

 

[Adamant]

SRR didn't always take fights seriously and would sometimes fight without even training. Floyd would probably beat that version of SRR. But SRR who is properly trained, motivated, and with that look in his eye whoops on any version of Floyd.

 

[Sunfish]

well the guy whois considered one of the best boxers of this time period is fighting a guy making his pro debut.... So it does still happen.

also how many modern champions have records of over 100+ fights its a lot fewer then it used to be...

also SRR went on a 91 fight unbeaten streak who else has repeated that in modern times...

I know all that about Robinson. And macgregor is a moron folding as if he runs in the same way.

 

[Streeter]

SSR is a combo of the best things about Floyd and Pac man.. Floyd has a SLIGHTLY better chance against SRR than Conor does against him. Only thing Floyd has is a slight advantage on defense SRR has edge every other place.

 

[zapataxiv]

I know all that about Robinson. And macgregor is a moron folding as if he runs in the same way.

not implying that you didn't know any of that. (actually i am familiar with your posts from NOBS)
what does the second sentence mean? sorry i really don't understand what you are trying to say

SSR is a combo of the best things about Floyd and Pac man.. Floyd has a SLIGHTLY better chance against SRR than Conor does against him. Only thing Floyd has is a slight advantage on defense SRR has edge every other place.

Thats too hyperbolic
Money is a great fighter and boxer it would not be an easy fight for SRR in any sense.

 

[Sunfish]

not implying that you didn't know any of that. (actually i am familiar with your posts from NOBS)
what does the second sentence mean? sorry i really don't understand what you are trying to say

Thats too hyperbolic
Money is a great fighter and boxer it would not be an easy fight for SRR in any sense.

That's an auto correct fuck up. I was crossing two lines of thought and then got the wrong word in the middle of it so no wonder it made no sense.

Basically macgregor is talking about Floyd running, but good defense and accurate counter punching is floyds thing and Conor doesn't have the patience to have fairly inactive rounds.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

 

[zapataxiv]

That's an auto correct fuck up. I was crossing two lines of thought and then got the wrong word in the middle of it so no wonder it made no sense.

Basically macgregor is talking about Floyd running, but good defense and accurate counter punching is floyds thing and Conor doesn't have the patience to have fairly inactive rounds.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

i agree with that sentiment (heck i don't even consider floyd a runner contrary to the popular narrative. The work he put in on maidana,mosley,cotto,etc.. contradicts that narrative) on both fronts fuck autocorrect.
also what does that have to do with my post or the discussion. Floyd is a former champion who is in the end (post twilight) of his career and is taking a fight for money with 0-0 fighter. This is not dissimilar to an over the hill SRR taking fights to pay the bills and retain some of the life that he once had.

 

[Sunfish]

i agree with that sentiment (heck i don't even consider floyd a runner contrary to the popular narrative. The work he put in on maidana,mosley,cotto,etc.. contradicts that narrative) on both fronts fuck autocorrect.
also what does that have to do with my post or the discussion. Floyd is a former champion who is in the end (post twilight) of his career and is taking a fight for money with 0-0 fighter. This is not dissimilar to an over the hill SRR taking fights to pay the bills and retain some of the life that he once had.

I was saying because of various things in here people shitting on Floyd for an 0-0 fighter as a reason why ray is better doesn't stack up because he did the same.

Not criming either of them for doing it, if your way of making money is prizefighting you do what you have to.