First transgender BJJ blackbelt?

[Dirty Holt]

I looked up the most recent studies using my university's library. Everything done in the last 3 years confirms that after a certain amount of time, the effects essentially make for an equal playing field on certain crucial variables. But it that doesn't mean ALL variables are dealt with in the study. I wouldn't be surprised if some things aren't effective enough to call it equal.
I'm happy for a scientific study in a peered review journal to test these other variables and show that the playing field isn't totally equal with someone that's transition to a woman. I've no ideological dog in the fight.

This is total assumption. The studies were done on non athletes, not elite level athletes,and the intentions had nothing to do with sport. Most of the PhD reviews dismiss certain variables as being non factors based on some sports, but those same qualities are very important in others. Because height in volleyball at the Olympics has an inverse correlation to success, that doesnt mean that height in basketball or swimming has an inverse effect on success. In addition, these studies use the decrease in muscle size of the thighs and appearance of adipose tissue in untrained individuals to show that a 3 year period negates previous biological advantages. This does not mean that male to female athletes will experience the same decrease in size and change of fat that will put them at the same level as their non trans female counter parts. They are elite athletes, they will continue to train and have an advantage.

Lastly, the study most widely used by supporters of this idea is the Elbers study. The last published review I read by multiple PhD's stated "In fact, there are no published, peer reviewed studies on the performance related sequelae of the commonly prescribed feminising hormone treatment regimens."

It is a bit unfair to use a few studies of non athletes to back up claims of fairness in sport, then ask for counter studies that do not exist. I have a Masters in Health and Human Performance, and like you, I do not have a dog in the fight, so just like you, I would like to see some real studies on trans athletes. I would rather trans females compete against women and kick their ass than not, as long as it quells some of the rhetoric that everyone is equal.

 

[drabon74]

feel free to show me the peer reviewed research. That's all I checked

Link? Reputable source? You need to have peer reviewed research to see that men or born physically superior to women? Would an x-ray be suffice? What university do you attend? I graduated form Clemson, worked with a major health insurance company for 14 years responsible for post payment claims reviews. Gender reassignment surgery is not covered by insurance.
Let me ask you this, why are women 6 times more likely to tear their acl? Did your peer reviewed research mention this? Do you understand why? Do you not think a more substantial, durable musculoskeletal is an advantage afforded by your birth gender that is irreversible?

 

[Spoken]

Link? Reputable source? You need to have peer reviewed research to see that men or born physically superior to women? Would an x-ray be suffice? What university do you attend? I graduated form Clemson, worked with a major health insurance company for 14 years responsible for post payment claims reviews. Gender reassignment surgery is not covered by insurance.
Let me ask you this, why are women 6 times more likely to tear their acl? Did your peer reviewed research mention this? Do you understand why? Do you not think a more substantial, durable musculoskeletal is an advantage afforded by your birth gender that is irreversible?

My PhD is in the humanities. I don’t need research to tell me the difference between genders, but when the two sides of a popular debate assert two different things about a man transitioning, what else am I supposed to do? From the few articles out there, muscle mass, bone density, and even ligament strength decrees with HRT. Again, these studies certainly can’t be comprehensive, but I made an improper authoritative statement. You should note how my edited stated isn’t particularly assertive. I’m not pretending to be an expert.

Not sure if you have access to your schools library still, but there may well be stuff I can’t see since there isn’t a school of medicine here.

Edit: I knew about the women’s knees thing. I used to manage bike shops and I was one of the fit guys

 

[Spoken]

This is total assumption. The studies were done on non athletes, not elite level athletes,and the intentions had nothing to do with sport. Most of the PhD reviews dismiss certain variables as being non factors based on some sports, but those same qualities are very important in others. Because height in volleyball at the Olympics has an inverse correlation to success, that doesnt mean that height in basketball or swimming has an inverse effect on success. In addition, these studies use the decrease in muscle size of the thighs and appearance of adipose tissue in untrained individuals to show that a 3 year period negates previous biological advantages. This does not mean that male to female athletes will experience the same decrease in size and change of fat that will put them at the same level as their non trans female counter parts. They are elite athletes, they will continue to train and have an advantage.

Lastly, the study most widely used by supporters of this idea is the Elbers study. The last published review I read by multiple PhD's stated "In fact, there are no published, peer reviewed studies on the performance related sequelae of the commonly prescribed feminising hormone treatment regimens."

It is a bit unfair to use a few studies of non athletes to back up claims of fairness in sport, then ask for counter studies that do not exist. I have a Masters in Health and Human Performance, and like you, I do not have a dog in the fight, so just like you, I would like to see some real studies on trans athletes. I would rather trans females compete against women and kick their ass than not, as long as it quells some of the rhetoric that everyone is equal.

This is helpful, actually. This shit obviously isn’t my field. The most I can do is find sources better than raging sher-bro ideology, and careful with making comprehensive and assertive statements.
But yes, a study on athletes would certainly clarify things.

 

[vcmmafan]

Men are born with biological advantages (regarding physical performance) to women that no gender reassignment surgery can reverse. That has nothing to do ideology and everything to do with science.

Like the Q Angle

 

[nefti]

My PhD is in the humanities. I don’t need research to tell me the difference between genders, but when the two sides of a popular debate assert two different things about a man transitioning, what else am I supposed to do? From the few articles out there, muscle mass, bone density, and even ligament strength decrees with HRT. Again, these studies certainly can’t be comprehensive, but I made an improper authoritative statement. You should note how my edited stated isn’t particularly assertive. I’m not pretending to be an expert.

Not sure if you have access to your schools library still, but there may well be stuff I can’t see since there isn’t a school of medicine here.

Edit: I knew about the women’s knees thing. I used to manage bike shops and I was one of the fit guys

Isn't hunamities libberal arts and not science? What does your humanities background aid in your understanding of the actual scientific differencees between men and women? I'm genuinely curious? Did your PhD require in depth research in anatomy, hormonal development, etc?

 

[Spoken]

Isn't hunamities libberal arts and not science? What does your humanities background aid in your understanding of the actual scientific differencees between men and women? I'm genuinely curious? Did your PhD require in depth research in anatomy, hormonal development, etc?

My point is that I don’t have a scientific background, so trusting in peer reviewed articles is the best I can do. my Edited OP was more about pulling back from my assertive statement, and instead noting that what studies I could find claim something different. But, as other posters have noted, those studies have variables that show the evidence inconclusive at this time.

 

[Thycidides]

I still want to know how one would tell a post op trans woman from a cis woman and why we are having this debate even though wrestling is co ed and there is an open weight division in bjj?

Also I have seen people that only had use of one arm compete in BJJ and grappling.

But I get the impression that if a bunch of new studies showed transwoman had some slight advantage of cis women the solution would not be to have transwomen compete with cis men!
Or perhaps we ban transpeople from sports?

That would be illegal under current law. Its pretty clear that the science isn't there yet, but the law is and the law is with me.

 

[Slick_36]

I still want to know how one would tell a post op trans woman from a cis woman and why we are having this debate even though wrestling is co ed and there is an open weight division in bjj?

Also I have seen people that only had use of one arm compete in BJJ and grappling.

But I get the impression that if a bunch of new studies showed transwoman had some slight advantage of cis women the solution would not be to have transwomen compete with cis men!
Or perhaps we ban transpeople from sports?

That would be illegal under current law. Its pretty clear that the science isn't there yet, but the law is and the law is with me.

Co-ed wrestling isn't legal in Texas, at least in high school, youth wrestling is though. I do think a girl should be able to wrestle in the boys division if she chooses, otherwise you end up with someone like Mack Beggs running through an already weak division with an experience advantage in youth and an added chemical advantage. And openweight is an additional division that is voluntary, the competitors still have the option to compete in their own divisions against their peers. I'm all for trans people training, and even competing, but it's not really fair to force girls to compete or be labeled a bigot. If we're going to tear gender down, compete at the highest level.

 

[drabon74]

It's simple, you compete against the same sex that you were born as. Thats the only fair solution. I have a daughter and to think she may have to compete against a man who had his balls cut off and had his penis split in half to form some Frankenstein poon hole really irritates me.

 

[Thycidides]

It's simple, you compete against the same sex that you were born as. Thats the only fair solution. I have a daughter and to think she may have to compete against a man who had his balls cut off and had his penis split in half to form some Frankenstein poon hole really irritates me.

I don't think you understand how this whole thing works. In a lot of cases birth certificates etc are changed and the person no longer looks like their birth gender. So your kid would end up going against someone that looks like a m an and wears a cup.

You also expect a lot out of bjj tournament organizers to ask for that type of ID anyway.

 

[yetanother]

In a lot of cases birth certificates etc are changed and the person no longer looks like their birth gender

In local events it can't be stopped.
If trannies start taking over high level events they will have to be banned as I doubt the TV audience wants to pay money to see them compete.

 

[Slick_36]

I don't think you understand how this whole thing works. In a lot of cases birth certificates etc are changed and the person no longer looks like their birth gender. So your kid would end up going against someone that looks like a m an and wears a cup.

You also expect a lot out of bjj tournament organizers to ask for that type of ID anyway.

You don't just change a birth certificate, sure you can legally have it altered, but then it stops being a BIRTH certificate and loses what value it ever had. Might as well not even include sex on there if you can alter it whenever you feel like.

And why the hell are you using what a person looks like to define their gender in any way? I love women, they birth the entire race and have the responsibility of raising our society while men do stupid shit and get killed or end up incarcerated at much higher rates or are overworking to provide for their families. What separates men and women is their reproductive parts and nothing more. Everything has statistical consistents, but there's always going to be outliers. All the greatest athletes are statistical outliers to begin with. There's going to be some masculine chicks out there who will dominate their field. We don't call them men because they refuse to distract themselves with makeup and sell their sexual identity as a product. She's a women because of her reproductive organs. Athletics deal in absolutes, and there's not room for gender spectrums any more than there's room for weight spectrums. You play with the cards you were dealt. We don't let athletes take steroids because they're better athletes in their heart, why is this medical intervention any different?

I feel terrible for the competitive people out there born with both sexual parts. They never had a choice and aren't getting a voice at all.

 

[Thycidides]

I don't think anyone read the Wikipedia article I linked to earlier that explained that these documents ARE often changed whenever the person they relate to decides to change them. Of course it varies from place to place but this is a lot easier than you think in USA and the EU etc

The surgery is also way more radical than you think it is. Its really hard to tell a Trans persons penis from a cis mans penis. Or a trans vagina from a cis vagina. It would take a surgeon to determine. You guys want the local BJJ tournament to have a surgeon give athletes examinations ?? I can't even Imagine IBJJF doing that.

A lot of this has already been decided by the courts and athletic associations and it was done in favor of trans people. I'm arguing for the status quo here. You guys are the ones wanting a change in the rules.

Trans people have competed in BJJ already like Trianglegrrl and she wen unnoticed until she came out. That was four years ago or so.

 

[jack36767]

I don't think anyone read the Wikipedia article I linked to earlier that explained that these documents ARE often changed whenever the person they relate to decides to change them. Of course it varies from place to place but this is a lot easier than you think in USA and the EU etc

The surgery is also way more radical than you think it is. Its really hard to tell a Trans persons penis from a cis mans penis. Or a trans vagina from a cis vagina. It would take a surgeon to determine. You guys want the local BJJ tournament to have a surgeon give athletes examinations ?? I can't even Imagine IBJJF doing that.

A lot of this has already been decided by the courts and athletic associations and it was done in favor of trans people. I'm arguing for the status quo here. You guys are the ones wanting a change in the rules.

Trans people have competed in BJJ already like Trianglegrrl and she wen unnoticed until she came out. That was four years ago or so.

People are arguing for common sense and logic not based off of one or two outliers. Several people asides from me have addressed your points and you ignore most of it unless it’s crap about how they “look” or a birth certificate and are actually and willfully ignoring the main point

 

[Thycidides]

People are arguing for common sense and logic not based off of one or two outliers. Several people asides from me have addressed your points and you ignore most of it unless it’s crap about how they “look” or a birth certificate and are actually and willfully ignoring the main point

I'm not sure what point you are trying to argue or anyone else is really.

My point is that Trans people competed, are competing, and will continue to compete in the BJJ division of their choosing unless some new rules are implemented which would be tricky to enforce. I'd rather those rules not be changed, because it would likely be invasive.

What is the counterpoint?

 

[jack36767]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to argue or anyone else is really.

My point is that Trans people competed, are competing, and will continue to compete in the BJJ division of their choosing unless some new rules are implemented which would be tricky to enforce. I'd rather those rules not be changed, because it would likely be invasive.

What is the counterpoint?

It’s an unfair advantage and runs counter to both the spirit of and the letter of the rules that govern how most athletics are done in the world. It ignores basic biology and common sense and requires going down a rabbit hole of postmodern “interpretation” that only seems feasible in the classroom. It’s whatever, @Slick_36 articulated it the best.

 

[Thycidides]

It’s an unfair advantage and runs counter to both the spirit of and the letter of the rules that govern how most athletics are done in the world. It ignores basic biology and common sense and requires going down a rabbit hole of postmodern “interpretation” that only seems feasible in the classroom. It’s whatever, @Slick_36 articulated it the best.

Not really, the IOC has more regulations than IBJJF but not the amount you are implying. THey made it easier for tran people to compete in Olympics recently in their preferred gender.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

A lot of those rules you mention have been changed recently.

 

[mike sherry]

The science is clear that steroids cause permanent benefits to the user long after cessation.


A bodybuilder taking tons of trenbolone has less of performance benefit (by percentange) over a clean male, than a clean male has over a female.

Taking estrogen doesn't make you weaker. It is not a catabolic hormone.

And it's pretty shitty a congratulatory thread has to come out like this.

 

[jack36767]

Not really, the IOC has more regulations than IBJJF but not the amount you are implying. THey made it easier for tran people to compete in Olympics recently in their preferred gender.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

A lot of those rules you mention have been changed recently.

Wow the point sailed over your head. Like I said, it’s whatever