First Cousin Marriage In Islam - Commonplace, As Muhammad (Then Ali and Umar); Almost Half Inbred:

[dissolved]

...and how many wives did Mohammed have? ...and how many wives are permitted to Muslims?
Regardless, I didn't say that it was forbidden, I said that 2 schools of jurisprudence teach that it is "disliked".

It's very simple. Hanbali and Shafi interpretations of Islamic jurisprudence teach that it is better not to marry close kin. That it is disliked.
To continue to claim that it's a teaching of Islam is therefore dishonest. You now know better, and have no excuse except wilful ignorance or flat out lying.

Wow, you're getting upset. As if I'm trying to lie based on the knowledge at hand.

You didn't provide a link but rather a paraphrase. Are you fluent in Arabic?

Here's another quote from the same article Q&A (which, incidentally is from: the Fatwa department research committee)

Zaynab was the first cousin of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Her mother was Umaymah, the daughter of his grandfather `Abd al-Muttalib. We can find no better example than that of the Prophet (peace be upon him), since he is the one Allah has ordered us to follow. If no one else in history ever married his cousin, the precedent of our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) would be more than sufficient for us.

Further, if you are correct and I am not, then how is it that roughly 45% of Muslims world-wide are disobeying the proper teachings of Islam?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Do you have a link for this?

Like for instance, I got the strong sense that this coworker of mine was reluctant in marrying his cousin - as in he "murked" the idea/disliked it. BUT, he was/is going along with it due to his parent's (particular devout mom's) and aunt's and uncle's arranging/urging. Ultimately it is a religious element that is driving this - and it makes perfect sense to think this way.

Like, who really wants to marry a relative? But, if Muhammad,
Ali and Uma did it, it's extremely easy to justify and even champion the reasons why it's a logical decision.

I mean this guy's parents are just in their late forties and early fifties. They weren't born in ancient history. Obviously there's a barrier to advancement here.

Why are you assuming that barrier can't be culture that's not related to religion? Religion isn't the onyl source of culture.

 

[dissolved]

Why are you assuming that barrier can't be culture that's not related to religion? Religion isn't the onyl source of culture.

I'd have to say that religion determines a lot, perhaps most of culture. And most Muslims that I've ever known, talked to, heard or read say that Islam is a complete way of life. In moments like this (which, essentially, is scrutiny) that paradigm can't be removed from conversation as if it never existed.

 

[Ruprecht]

Wow, you're getting upset. As if I'm trying to lie based on the knowledge at hand.

You didn't provide a link but rather a paraphrase. Are you fluent in Arabic?

Here's another quote from the same article Q&A (which, incidentally is from: the Fatwa department research committee)

Further, if you are correct and I am not, then how is it that roughly 45% of Muslims world-wide are disobeying the proper teachings of Islam?

45% of Sunni Muslims who follow the Shafi and Hanbali madhab marry their cousins? Nonsense. Absolute tripe.

...and which Madhab do the authors of your Q&A follow? Do you know?

You can find plenty of links saying similar things.
The Hanafi and Maliki Madhabs don't consider the relevant hadith authentic.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32767
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011...eace-be-upon-him-discourage-marrying-cousins/

That doesn't change the fact that the Shafi madhab teaches that it's disliked and S E Asian Muslims (the majority of whom follow the Shafi Madhab) overwhelmingly don't practice cousin marriage. On the other hand the Hanbali madhab also teaches that it's disliked, and yet a lot of them do still practice it.

Now you know. Continuing to claim it's a teaching of Islam is therefore wilful ignorance and/or lying. Given your posting history, I know which way I'm leaning.

 

[dissolved]

45% of Sunni Muslims who follow the Shafi and Hanbali madhab marry their cousins? Nonsense. Absolute tripe.

...and which Madhab do the authors of your Q&A follow? Do you know?

You can find plenty of links saying similar things.
The Hanafi and Maliki Madhabs don't consider the relevant hadith authentic.

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32767
http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011...eace-be-upon-him-discourage-marrying-cousins/

That doesn't change the fact that the Shafi madhab teaches that it's disliked and S E Asian Muslims (the majority of whom follow the Shadi Madhab) overwhelmingly don't practice cousin marriage. On the other hand the Hanbali madhab also teaches that it's disliked, and yet a lot of them do still practice it.

Now you know. Continuing to claim it's a teaching of Islam is therefore wilful ignorance and/or lying. Given your posting history, I know which way I'm leaning.

My posting history? Not to say that I've been perfect, but I can't recall a lie I've told - honestly. And I've been very civil to you in this conversation Ruprecht yet you keep bringing dishonesty up. Again, I forgive you.

That said, I can't help but wonder why you're getting so upset?

Why's your interest level so great in this? You've said in the past you're a Christian, yet somehow you know so much about the teachings of Islam (even on a topic as obscure as this).

Anyway, from your seekershub.org link:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011...eace-be-upon-him-discourage-marrying-cousins/

Question: Did the Prophet (peace be upon him) discourage marrying relatives (ie. cousins) even though it is lawful?

Answer: Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah,

I pray this finds you in the best of health and states.

The short answer is that there are certain narrations that discourage marrying cousins, yet experts of hadith verification have determined them to be extremely weak or fabricated.

Regarding these and similar narrations, the 7th century hadith specialist Ibn Salah said, “I found no reliable basis for them.” Many eminent hadith masters mentioned his statement and concurred, such as Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Ibn Mulaqqin, and others. [Ibn Hajar, Talkhis al-Habir; Ibn Mulaqqin, Khulasat al-Badr]

Taj al-Subki said regarding these narrations, “I found no chain of transmission (isnad) for them.” [Subki, Ahadith al-Ihya Alati La Asla Laha]

Hence it can be concluded that these narrations — as statements of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) — are fabricated.

In this link:

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32767

The author starts with:

As you have quite rightly pointed out, the default legal (shari`) ruling is that first cousin marriages are permissible.

He then goes on to a complicated explanation that consideration must be given to science and that the Qur'an is all about the good of the person in this regard (paraphrase).

Unfortunately, as I've said in one way or another, the default of Islam is the perfection of Muhammad and that he is to be emulated. So ultimately as I see it, the stats back up following "the prophet."

I had difficulty finding stats to prove what you were arguing for, but I did find this article about changing marriage patterns in Southeast Asia:

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/wps/wps10_131.pdf

Page 9 deals with cousin marriage. Relative to this discussion, there is an issue still with cousins marrying but it's not as high in Malaysia as in Indonesia (where it's between 30 and 50% still). As expected by these percentages, Indonesia has the highest Muslim population in the world.

I am not saying that marrying cousins is taught explicitly, I am saying it that it happens/is practiced by many because Muhammad and caliphs did it.

 

[Ruprecht]

My posting history? Not to say that I've been perfect, but I can't recall a lie I've told - honestly. And I've been very civil to you in this conversation Ruprecht yet you keep bringing dishonesty up. Again, I forgive you.

That said, I can't help but wonder why you're getting so upset?

Why's your interest level so great in this? You've said in the past you're a Christian, yet somehow you know so much about the teachings of Islam (even on a topic as obscure as this)

What makes you think I'm upset? Just because I'm calling you out for being wilfully ignorant and dishonest doesn't mean I'm upset about it.
As I've said before, I've lived in Malaysia and Indonesia, so I'm familiar with their beliefs and behaviour.

Anyway, from your seekershub.org link:

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011...eace-be-upon-him-discourage-marrying-cousins/

In this link:

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/32767

The author starts with:

He then goes on to a complicated explanation that consideration must be given to science and that the Qur'an is all about the good of the person in this regard (paraphrase).

Unfortunately, as I've said in one way or another, the default of Islam is the perfection of Muhammad and that he is to be emulated. So ultimately as I see it, the stats back up following "the prophet."

That's because you're intellectually dishonest about it. Those two links weren't trying to prove the Hanbali or Shafi perspective, they are both from Hanafi perspectives. Yet even they admit that from the Shafi and Hanbali perspective it is "disliked".

I had difficulty finding stats to prove what you were arguing for, but I did find this article about changing marriage patterns in Southeast Asia:

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/wps/wps10_131.pdf

Page 9 deals with cousin marriage. Relative to this discussion, there is an issue still with cousins marrying but it's not as high in Malaysia as in Indonesia (where it's between 30 and 50% still). As expected by these percentages, Indonesia has the highest Muslim population in the world.

Difficulty finding any stats supporting what you were arguing you mean. ...and again either dishonest or wilfully ignorant in regards to what your own link says about the prevalence in Malaysia and Indonesia.

 

[indo80]

Sure it is a Sikh would lie just to make his own people look like inbreeds. I know the whole every one is a brother sister, yet they still marry blood relatives especially if its on the mothers side.

You obviously know very little about this issue and base your generalizations by what some imbecile you work with told you.....here i'll quote wiki

"Cousin marriage is proscribed and seen as incest for Hindus in North India. In fact it may even be unacceptable to marry within one's village or for two siblings to marry partners from the same village."

and i goes on to say

"In many North Indian communities like Brahmin s, Rajputs, Vaishyas, Jats, Yadavs etc., everyone who is immediately associated with 4 surnames; own surname (that is father's surname), mother's maiden surname, paternal grandmother's maiden surname, maternal grandmother's maiden surname. These 4 surnames are known as the candidate's Gotra (lit. branch). Any 2 candidates who want to marry cannot have the common Gotra."

I'm from north india and i can tell you that I live within this culture and i know how wrong you are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

 

[Islam Imamate]

You obviously know very little about this issue and base your generalizations by what some imbecile you work with told you.....here i'll quote wiki

"Cousin marriage is proscribed and seen as incest for Hindus in North India. In fact it may even be unacceptable to marry within one's village or for two siblings to marry partners from the same village."

and i goes on to say

"In many North Indian communities like Brahmin s, Rajputs, Vaishyas, Jats, Yadavs etc., everyone who is immediately associated with 4 surnames; own surname (that is father's surname), mother's maiden surname, paternal grandmother's maiden surname, maternal grandmother's maiden surname. These 4 surnames are known as the candidate's Gotra (lit. branch). Any 2 candidates who want to marry cannot have the common Gotra."

I'm from north india and i can tell you that I live within this culture and i know how wrong you are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

Wiki also says this:

However, in South India it is common for Hindu cross cousins to marry, with matrilateral cross-cousin (mother's brother's daughter) marriages being especially favored.[107] The southern kinship model prevails in the states of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu and Telangana.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

So, my Shia-Muslim co-worker who recently threatened to shoot everyone at my workplace is the product of two first cousins marrying. He was readying himself to go back to the Middle East and finalize the marriage to his first cousin before bringing her to North America as his wife. Further, as is the norm, both sets of parents were highly involved in the arranging of this marriage.

Does it not make you wonder now why so many Muslims living in North America go back to the Middle East to marry?

The "prophet" of Islam (Muhammad) married his cousins, as did Ali (caliph in the Shia strain of sects), and as did Umar (caliph in the Sunni strain of sects) . . .

Yet another perfect contribution from the religion of subjugation, confusion, and never-ending strife and violence coming The West's/Great Satan's way. Another dirty little secret that you seldom hear about.

I'll use WikiIslam to source but will follow up with "less-biased" sources to shut up the Islamic-apologists in here:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Cousin_Marriage_in_Islam#History














Islamic website, IslamToday, confirms cousin-marriage's "valid" place in Islam:

http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1265



And, from an older MailOnline article (2011 - I'm curious if this article would be written today):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mmunities-putting-hundreds-children-risk.html



Yet another reason to oppose this ideological disease before the rest of the world looks like the conflict-riddled Middle East and North Africa (Muslim majorities):

http://www.cfr.org/peace-conflict-a...!/?cid=otr-marketing_url-sunni_shia_infoguide

If the bible is correct,
Jesus christ is a direct descendent
of incest. Loc fucked his daughter
& the lineage leads to David & christ.

Just fyi

 

[dissolved]

If the bible is correct,
Jesus christ is a direct descendent
of incest. Loc fucked his daughter
& the lineage leads to David & christ.

Just fyi

Luke 3:23 says, "He was the son of Joseph, so it was thought,"

The Bible is very clear Jesus was born of a Virgin (Mary) who came with child through the Holy Spirit. Joseph simply provided for Jesus and his family and more than likely aided in raising Him though there isn't much information on this.

There's lots of sin in the family tree of Jesus' predecessors due the fall of man [kind] in Genesis. This does not mean that Jesus was a partaker in the sin that his ancient predecessors committed.

Further to this, there is a difference in Christianity to Islam in that Christianity teaches that mankind is born "fallen" or in a state outside of grace due to sin which is passed on genetically and is the condition apart from acceptance of Jesus Christ as God's Son, Savior of the world through his perfect life, death (shed blood on the cross), and resurrection from the dead (defeating death).

 

[dissolved]

What makes you think I'm upset? Just because I'm calling you out for being wilfully ignorant and dishonest doesn't mean I'm upset about it.
As I've said before, I've lived in Malaysia and Indonesia, so I'm familiar with their beliefs and behaviour.



That's because you're intellectually dishonest about it. Those two links weren't trying to prove the Hanbali or Shafi perspective, they are both from Hanafi perspectives. Yet even they admit that from the Shafi and Hanbali perspective it is "disliked".



Difficulty finding any stats supporting what you were arguing you mean. ...and again either dishonest or wilfully ignorant in regards to what your own link says about the prevalence in Malaysia and Indonesia.

You mean from the link that says that there are problems still cousin-marriage problems there and in Indonesia cousin marriage is still between 30 and 50%?

Your argumentation on this issue is some of the worst I've seen. You've produced almost zero information that supports your assertions and almost every post of yours has an insult levied at me.

I don't think this topic is for you, Ruprecht. Of course you garner frequent "likes" from Kafir-Kun.

 

[MeatheadMike]

Only first a cousin? Sheeeit, the Muslims need to step up their game if they want to be as inbred as the good folks of Kentucky

 

[Ruprecht]

You mean from the link that says that there are problems still cousin-marriage problems there and in Indonesia cousin marriage is still between 30 and 50%?

It doesn't say that.

Your argumentation on this issue is some of the worst I've seen. You've produced almost zero information that supports your assertions and almost every post of yours has an insult levied at me.

Doesn't mean much to me, given your obvious lack of honesty.

I don't think this topic is for you, Ruprecht. Of course you garner frequent "likes" from Kafir-Kun.

Bad luck. Stop posting nonsense if you don't want it pointed out.

 

[Serana]

Hold on a sec, he threatened to shoot up your workplace?

Yeah, that's the bigger issue here, not whether or not he wants to marry his cousin.

 

[FeloniousMonk]

Luke 3:23 says, "He was the son of Joseph, so it was thought,"

The Bible is very clear Jesus was born of a Virgin (Mary) who came with child through the Holy Spirit. Joseph simply provided for Jesus and his family and more than likely aided in raising Him though there isn't much information on this.

There's lots of sin in the family tree of Jesus' predecessors due the fall of man [kind] in Genesis. This does not mean that Jesus was a partaker in the sin that his ancient predecessors committed.

Further to this, there is a difference in Christianity to Islam in that Christianity teaches that mankind is born "fallen" or in a state outside of grace due to sin which is passed on genetically and is the condition apart from acceptance of Jesus Christ as God's Son, Savior of the world through his perfect life, death (shed blood on the cross), and resurrection from the dead (defeating death).

Thought/believe. The only difference
at that point is faith in those beliefs
and according actions. If you believe
in the Bible's word. Then Lot fucked
his daughter Ruth; who gave offspring
to Moab, who was related to David...
Then baby Jesus comes along through
all of it.

Imo, I have no qualms with this belief.
What I have a problem with is the idea
of "Virgin" Motherhood". It's not possible
and it works to defile the act of sex,
which I feel is natural, healing and holy.

Also, there is no defeating death.
Just as there is no defeating life

 

[UpaLoompa]

Older women can have babies because being old can't be helped!

Seriously? It's actually quite easy to prevent older women from having babies.

 

[UpaLoompa]

Most mental illness has a genetic origin. Inbreeding absolutely does damage your genetics and make all manner of mental and physical illnesses far more likely. there's a reason incest is a nearly universal cultural taboo. It protects your bloodline from contamination.

You're mixed up. Outbreeding would be "contamination". Inbreeding in that type of mentality would be protecting "from contamination". Neither of those are "things" though. Inbreeding can also be highly effective if you also institute strong culling. Further, inbreeding doesn't necessarily damage your "genetics", it makes it more likely deleterious recessive alleles are expressed (e.g. many of the genetic diseases that only get observed in jewish populations).

 

[Mike]

You're mixed up. Outbreeding would be "contamination". Inbreeding in that type of mentality would be protecting "from contamination". Neither of those are "things" though. Inbreeding can also be highly effective if you also institute strong culling. Further, inbreeding doesn't necessarily damage your "genetics", it makes it more likely deleterious recessive alleles are expressed (e.g. many of the genetic diseases that only get observed in jewish populations).

Nitpicking aside you clearly got what I meant. Yes inbreeding makes it more likely harmful alleles are expressed. Over time if your family line becomes inbred enough you drastically raise your.chances of having various issues. Speaking in laymans terms yes saying it damages your.genetics is a decent enough explanation. This isn't biology class.

 

[UpaLoompa]

Generalities about Brown cultures? lol, you are unbelievable. This has zero to do with race of racial cultures... Stop being so ethnocentric. This is about a religion.

You object to generalizations about race but readily generalize about religion. Cute. If anything this is also far more about cultural practices than religion.

 

[UpaLoompa]

Nitpicking aside you clearly got what I meant. Yes inbreeding makes it more likely harmful alleles are expressed. Over time if your family line becomes inbred enough you drastically raise your.chances of having various issues. Speaking in laymans terms yes saying it damages your.genetics is a decent enough explanation. This isn't biology class.

The point I was making also includes the fact that inbreeding can be massively effective in promoting positive traits too.