Fighting Likely to End on the Ground... Really???

[bulldogfire]

Ok, so I have heard soooo much about fights ending up on the ground... 75, 90% of fights. Seems like since most average joes and janes don't know anything about fighting other than flailing arms, bouncing around, grabbing hair (for the ladies usually), etc. that it more ends up on the ground due to them not knowing proper base, footwork, knowing how to defend a takedown attempt, etc. than anything.

If you had an untrained average person against a trained person who did have the proper footwork, stance, base, takedown defense, etc. seems like that statistic would probably go way down, especially in a one on one fight. Therefore, it seems like a truly trained person could dictate whether the fight went to the ground or not and not so much of the ground being "inevitable."

Thoughts?

 

[ChainFlow]

As long as by "truly trained person" you mean wrestler/judoka/sambist, then yeah, obviously.

If you mean hapkido or some nonsense GTFO.

 

[Nozza]

If you had an untrained average person against a trained person who did have the proper footwork, stance, base, takedown defense, etc. seems like that statistic would probably go way down, especially in a one on one fight. Therefore, it seems like a truly trained person could dictate whether the fight went to the ground or not and not so much of the ground being "inevitable."

Obviously yes.

But as you say most fights are not between trained fighters so I'm not really sure what the point is?

 

[HomerPlata]

Ok, so I have heard soooo much about fights ending up on the ground... 75, 90% of fights. Seems like since most average joes and janes don't know anything about fighting other than flailing arms, bouncing around, grabbing hair (for the ladies usually), etc. that it more ends up on the ground due to them not knowing proper base, footwork, knowing how to defend a takedown attempt, etc. than anything.

If you had an untrained average person against a trained person who did have the proper footwork, stance, base, takedown defense, etc. seems like that statistic would probably go way down, especially in a one on one fight. Therefore, it seems like a truly trained person could dictate whether the fight went to the ground or not and not so much of the ground being "inevitable."

Thoughts?

I think the point being made is that there is no referee type person to split the fighters cleanly in most street altercations, so when the inevitable clinch happens, neither guy wants to give it up - separating from a clinch without risking getting clipped requires mutual trust.

So, in general, once clinching/wrestling/groundfighting is initiated, that's where it will stay. Of course, you always have those 5-10 seconds at the start, where clean striking is king, but if you miss your chance to finish, you'll likely be locked in a clinch/wrestling battle until it's over.

Unless you're in a Kimbo home video, of course, where the cameraman will call "break" :icon_chee

 

[bulldogfire]

But as you say most fights are not between trained fighters so I'm not really sure what the point is?

Usually a major selling point of BJJ is that most fights end up on the ground, so defend yourself with some BJJ! It seems like if a person gets trained in some art, fighting system, etc. to the point that the person becomes proficient in the basics I listed above that BJJ would be more of an "if" it happens you go to the ground instead of "when" you go to the ground.

Oh and not meaning this to turn into people practicing BJJ for love of the art vs self-defense vs sport.

 

[Steeltwo]

Go to Youtube and type in

Street fights

Then you'll see what they mean.

The fights I have seen, I'd say 99% end up on the ground. But that might be because wrestling is a bigger deal in the midwest than on the Coasts.

 

[Chinaboxer]

i like to say "90% of fights end up on the ground, but 100% start on the feet."

 

[jclaudevandamme]

As long as by "truly trained person" you mean wrestler/judoka/sambist, then yeah, obviously.

If you mean hapkido or some nonsense GTFO.

What if it is ninjutsu? Ninjutsu won UFC once

 

[Kozbot]

If there isn't a KO within the first 10 seconds people will generally trip or fall on top on one another.

 

[bulldogfire]

If there isn't a KO within the first 10 seconds people will generally trip or fall on top on one another.

Yes this seems to happen a bit watching street fight videos. Still most of those folks don't look like they have any training either to not trip, over commit their weight, feet aren't planted right, etc.

 

[Nozza]

Usually a major selling point of BJJ is that most fights end up on the ground, so defend yourself with some BJJ! It seems like if a person gets trained in some art, fighting system, etc. to the point that the person becomes proficient in the basics I listed above that BJJ would be more of an "if" it happens you go to the ground instead of "when" you go to the ground.

Yeah that's true but they're not talking about trained fighter vs trained fighter with those (made up) stats they put out. You're very unlikely to to meet some guy well versed in take down defence.

I've seen a fair few pub brawls and the like and most of them did end up on the ground. So having ground skills would work. However if either of them had really good striking skills then it probably would have ended up with just one guy on the ground.

I take the point however that the reason why they end up on the ground is because neither of them know what they're doing and that ANY good MA will work be it one that stops it going to ground with good striking or one that takes it to the ground and wins there. I suppose BJJ wins a little with the fact that a boxer can still be taken down and pounded. However a good boxer will just knock the guy spark out anyway so not a huge win.

Oh and not meaning this to turn into people practicing BJJ for love of the art vs self-defense vs sport.

90% of fights might not end up on the ground but 90% of F12 discussions end up as a defence vs sport argument!

 

[BJJisFUN]

Usually a major selling point of BJJ is that most fights end up on the ground, so defend yourself with some BJJ! It seems like if a person gets trained in some art, fighting system, etc. to the point that the person becomes proficient in the basics I listed above that BJJ would be more of an "if" it happens you go to the ground instead of "when" you go to the ground.

Oh and not meaning this to turn into people practicing BJJ for love of the art vs self-defense vs sport.

Valid questions. For me, I've always been more inclined to grab somebody than hit them. That's just in my nature. I've talked to people who train in striking arts (boxing and kenpo specifically) and they said they have never trained takedown defense. In my experience, once you've been working takedowns with other grapplers, taking down an untrained person is relatively easy. So now you have a person who trains take downs vs somebody who has never learned to defend them. Granted, most fights start on the feet, but how many boxing matches have you seen where the guys are repeatedly clinching and have to be separated? Now what happens when one of the those guys knows how to take the other down from the clinch? Of course the challenge for a grappler is going to be closing the distance and getting the clinch/takedown without getting knocked out. That requires controlling the distance and is something that should be addressed through your grappling training. The added bonus to grappling is the self-defense aspect...what do you do if it's not a fight but somebody comes up behind you and grabs you? Grappling (should) prepare you for that...striking doesn't. Of course if somebody comes up behind you and cold ***** you it doesn't matter if you're a grappler or striker. Of course these are all generalizations, but I've thought about the questions you're asking and they are valid. If I was going to do a striking art, I would go with Muay Thai, because of it's work in the clinch

 

[BJJisFUN]

I'd like to add to what I said above. I've had several jobs where I had to deal with aggressive/assaultive people, and I've had to handle them without hurting them. BJJ has allowed me to control situations without having to throw a punch. I've been able to avoid being taken down AND been able to take somebody down and control them without hurting them. If your fight scenario involves a drunk uncle who gets out of control and you don't want to hurt him, grappling helps

 

[SummerStriker]

There is a big difference between a fight going to the ground from damage and a fight going to the ground from a clean TD. I'm not sure I've ever seen the later.

 

[georgejjr]

Talking to local cops, most fights involve weapons and numbers, and they typically go to the ground all right, though often as a result of the victim being shot or knifed and collapsing from their wounds. I'm not sure if that's what the original statistic referred to or not.

Most real fights (check the crime stats, this might vary depending upon where you live) don't look like sporting events. At least around here, its more likely two or three armed guys jumping out of a car and blind siding someone, often knifing them before the victim realizes that he's in a fight. The best self defense is situational awareness, and I'd say the second best would be something like the 110 meter hurdles - get away fast and with the ability to jump over obstacles.

 

[BJJisFUN]

Talking to local cops, most fights involve weapons and numbers, and they typically go to the ground all right, though often as a result of the victim being shot or knifed and collapsing from their wounds. I'm not sure if that's what the original statistic referred to or not.

Most real fights (check the crime stats, this might vary depending upon where you live) don't look like sporting events. At least around here, its more likely two or three armed guys jumping out of a car and blind siding someone, often knifing them before the victim realizes that he's in a fight. The best self defense is situational awareness, and I'd say the second best would be something like the 110 meter hurdles - get away fast and with the ability to jump over obstacles.

Of course all of this is true. Just to clarify, my comments were in response to the original post which I took to mean two people involved in mutual combat

 

[Shemhazai]

The fact that many fights go to the ground just means that someone usually gets knocked down from a punch or falls over/trips due to having shitty balance and footwork. If someone with grappling experience can't help being taken to the ground, he either 1) has been rocked and is already at a huge disadvantage, 2) really needs to work on his stand-up wrestling or 3) is just unlucky and slips/trips.

That being said, I think it's true that almost every single real fight ends up in the clinch pretty quickly - people don't exactly stay on the outside and throw jabs when they're committed to attacking you against your will. (Parking lot challenges are a different story, but quite irrelevant.) IMO this is the primary reason why grappling arts have huge self defense value.

 

[selfcritical]

Ok, so I have heard soooo much about fights ending up on the ground... 75, 90% of fights. Seems like since most average joes and janes don't know anything about fighting other than flailing arms, bouncing around, grabbing hair (for the ladies usually), etc. that it more ends up on the ground due to them not knowing proper base, footwork, knowing how to defend a takedown attempt, etc. than anything.

If you had an untrained average person against a trained person who did have the proper footwork, stance, base, takedown defense, etc. seems like that statistic would probably go way down, especially in a one on one fight. Therefore, it seems like a truly trained person could dictate whether the fight went to the ground or not and not so much of the ground being "inevitable."

Thoughts?

The 90 percent statistic comes from police use of force. Proper defensive tactics has you taking people down to restrain and cuff. Projecting from that to civilian use of force may be problematic.

 

[Chute Stomp]

The funny thing is, with the rise of the UFC it seems more and more fights are going to the ground, even they don't know what the hell they are doing once it goes there. A lot of the fights I've seen recently, people seem to have a vague idea that "mount" is a great position to be in. Of course, they lose it pretty fast and get rolled over. Then roll around a bit more.

A lot of sucker punching going on these days though, if Worldstar has taught me anything.

 

[selfcritical]

Talking to local cops, most fights involve weapons and numbers, and they typically go to the ground all right, though often as a result of the victim being shot or knifed and collapsing from their wounds. I'm not sure if that's what the original statistic referred to or not.

Most real fights (check the crime stats, this might vary depending upon where you live) don't look like sporting events. At least around here, its more likely two or three armed guys jumping out of a car and blind siding someone, often knifing them before the victim realizes that he's in a fight. The best self defense is situational awareness, and I'd say the second best would be something like the 110 meter hurdles - get away fast and with the ability to jump over obstacles.

....most fights involve a woman and a man whom she's known for a prolonged period of time, one-on-one in private.