Failure response.

Kframe

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Hey guys. I was looking for advice on how you deal with a failed set or two.

Ok so today, I was doing Bent over rows. 4 sets, 10 reps 100lbs. (I am newish at this, started one month ago)
The first two sets were ok, heavy but ok. The last 2 sets, towards reps 6 on to 10 for the last 2 sets, I found my self having to do this little hitch with my back, not a big hitch but noticeable in the mirror, to get it all the way back up.

So I will conclude that as a failure. Now i plan doing that same weight again, 100lbs, the next time Bent over rows come back up.

Do you guys agree? Any advice on this and how you handle failure?

Thanks guys.
 
Usually when it comes to higher reps (5+), I pick a weight where I can do strict form. On hypertrophy days I aim for 8-12, but oftently the first week with a weight I usually hit 10 reps, the following week I hit 11, then I bump the weight the week after.
When I say strict form, I mean I'm able to squeeze and contract at the concentric, and on the negative I let it stretch the muscle at the bottom. I always hit full range of motion.
When I had ego in the equation, I didn;t do as well, with this style of form, I made gains and have had no signs of stalling. But it should be noted I'm on a surplus, so that probably helps alot as well.

So to answer the question, if I have to hitch and compromise form on a movement, and it on alot of reps and sets,(eg. I aim for 4x8-12, and hitch 6-8 reps on 3 sets) I do either of the following:
-drop the weight and hit it with strict form again
or
-switch the exercise or variation.. so maybe instead of BB rows, I do DB rows / machine / pendley rows
 
I'd pretty much go along with what j123 said.

if you're training in the ~10rep range i assume you're looking to put mass on more than focus on strength?
just concentrate on your form. i usually become more and more upright as it gets tougher which can be tough to avoid.

maybe try rowing off blocks and reset after each pull if you're close to failure? i tend to avoid failure if possible and i think i'm better off for it.
 
Ivorytusk, when you say focusing on mass, instead of strength, what does that mean. I am increasing the weight each day I work out. I know I am getting stronger as the numbers from one month ago indicate progress. So, the higher rep ranges don't improve strength? Or do they work both strength and mass or something I am not at all familiar with.. I am moving up in weight, so my goal was to work both strength and strength endurance. Moving weight over more then a few reps. Well, I guess I am doing this to prevent as much muscle loss during my weightloss as possible.

Jt123, I try to maintain form in all the exercises, I don't arch my back, or drop the weight. I control it at all times. Though I don't do them slowly. I like your suggestion to move down a bit in weight if I start to fail a set. So I assume that I should consider anytime form is broken that is a failed set. I figured as much, so I thought I would ask here.

Now Ivory, had suggested resetting towards the end, as I tire out. I may try that as well and see which I like.

Since I have been adding 5lbs a week to each exercise, and repeating that weight the next week if I fail on a set, is that ok? Or should I be doing one weight for weeks, until I move out of a specific rep range, say start with 8, then when I hit 12 for a weight, then move up? Which, unless I am mistaken, is what Jt123 is doing.

I was on some lifting forums, and they all suggested that newbs start with the 5 compound barbell lifts. So I do Bench,Squat,Over head press, Bent Rows, Dead Lift.(though dead lift is 1x10)

I noticed that stronglifts and SS were both 80% plus 1rm low reps, heavy weight routines. I was nervous about doing that alone at night. SO I decided on doing 4x10. I started with 100lbs on all(ohp I started on 60lbs) only move up when I can do it with out form breaking.

I am open to any advice on changing my routine.
I appreciate the help guys.
 
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Ivorytusk, when you say focusing on mass, instead of strength, what does that mean. I am increasing the weight each day I work out. I know I am getting stronger as the numbers from one month ago indicate progress. So, the higher rep ranges don't improve strength? Or do they work both strength and mass or something I am not at all familiar with.. I am moving up in weight, so my goal was to work both strength and strength endurance. Moving weight over more then a few reps. Well, I guess I am doing this to prevent as much muscle loss during my weightloss as possible.

You are getting stronger by working out daily, but a routine specifically tailored for strength will provide results faster than a hypertrophy/mass building routine
UrF1U.png

Strength and hypertrophy and still related, so the effects are synergetic to each other. Your hypertophy reps will benefit from you being stronger (you can use heavier weights on higher reps)

4x8-12 is basically with your 50-70% RM.
If your max bench is 135, your 8-12 would probably be 70-95, whereas if your 1RM is 315, your working 8-12 would be around 155-220lbs. Its how you grow, you break the muscle down in your workout, when you rest and recover, your muscles adapts and grow.

If your goal is to increase your core lifts (squats, bench, deads, maybe OHP), then a routine like 5x5, 5/3/1, or anything less than 5 reps on compound movements will be what you would be looking for. An example of a hypertophy routine would be PHAT (5 days a week) or Push, Pull, Legs (6 days a week) where there is alot of volume, assistance/isolation exercises, and the focus of those days is on reps

Jt123, I try to maintain form in all the exercises, I don't arch my back, or drop the weight. I control it at all times. Though I don't do them slowly. I like your suggestion to move down a bit in weight if I start to fail a set. So I assume that I should consider anytime form is broken that is a failed set. I figured as much, so I thought I would ask here.

Now Ivory, had suggested resetting towards the end, as I tire out. I may try that as well and see which I like.

Since I have been adding 5lbs a week to each exercise, and repeating that weight the next week if I fail on a set, is that ok? Or should I be doing one weight for weeks, until I move out of a specific rep range, say start with 8, then when I hit 12 for a weight, then move up? Which, unless I am mistaken, is what Jt123 is doing.

Yeah thats what I do. When I can hit 11-12 reps on 3-4 of 4 sets then I increase the weight the following week. If I get say:
Bench Press 175 x 11,11,10, 9
Then I redo it again next week aiming for at least 12,12,11,10

I was on some lifting forums, and they all suggested that newbs start with the 5 compound barbell lifts. So I do Bench,Squat,Over head press, Bent Rows, Dead Lift.(though dead lift is 1x10)

I noticed that stronglifts and SS were both 80% plus 1rm low reps, heavy weight routines. I was nervous about doing that alone at night. SO I decided on doing 4x10. I started with 100lbs on all(ohp I started on 60lbs) only move up when I can do it with out form breaking.

I am open to any advice on changing my routine.
I appreciate the help guys.

Its okay to start at a lower weight and to practice form with the bar as well. If strength is your goal, and your body is now used to lifting, its good to switch to a strength routine now.
 
my understanding is (and this is still somewhat up for debate) that 1-5reps is the most efficacious rep range for strength gains. this is why most of the linear/beginner progressions are based around a 5x5 type routine. sets of 10 were traditionally used more for hypertrophy (size gains). i'm not saying the ~10 rep range won't improve strength but in my limited exeperience the 1-5rep range is much better.

i spent a lot of time in the gym banging out set after set of 8-12 reps- lots of them to failure, forced reps, partials, negatives etc. all the stuff that was in the magazines of old such as flex, m&f etc. but made very little progress.

once i forked out for a rack and olympic set at home i started on my 5x5 journey and made so much progress i was horrified at the time i'd wasted.

your approach seems sound but if you've not tried starting strenght/ strong lifts it is definitely worth having a crack- i bloody loved madcow and ran several cycles with good results. just make sure you start off very light (i think it recommends just the bar to begin with but i started at a moderate weight) and aim to add 2.5-5kg per session etc.

there's loads of info in the faq section.
 
Usually when it comes to higher reps (5+), I pick a weight where I can do strict form. On hypertrophy days I aim for 8-12, but oftently the first week with a weight I usually hit 10 reps, the following week I hit 11, then I bump the weight the week after.
When I say strict form, I mean I'm able to squeeze and contract at the concentric, and on the negative I let it stretch the muscle at the bottom. I always hit full range of motion.
When I had ego in the equation, I didn;t do as well, with this style of form, I made gains and have had no signs of stalling. But it should be noted I'm on a surplus, so that probably helps alot as well.

So to answer the question, if I have to hitch and compromise form on a movement, and it on alot of reps and sets,(eg. I aim for 4x8-12, and hitch 6-8 reps on 3 sets) I do either of the following:
-drop the weight and hit it with strict form again
or
-switch the exercise or variation.. so maybe instead of BB rows, I do DB rows / machine / pendley rows
Ego, man. You nailed it. You just cannot have ego in the gym. We are probably all guilty of it. I know I am.
I was watching a video last night about a particular lift and realized I've been doing it wrong. This morning I had to drop weight to get the form right. But it was hard not to think of it as "taking a step back"!
 
Sure you can.

It just has to be properly directed and applied.
Nah, not for me at least. Not for most people, I would wager. Ego often overrides common sense and gets in the way of real learning.
 
Nah, not for me at least. Not for most people, I would wager. Ego often overrides common sense and gets in the way of real learning.

You must have missed the entire "properly directed and applied" part, eh?

I can see how ego would never play a part in your gym life if you strive for nothing but mediocrity, though.
 
You are getting stronger by working out daily, but a routine specifically tailored for strength will provide results faster than a hypertrophy/mass building routine
UrF1U.png

Strength and hypertrophy and still related, so the effects are synergetic to each other. Your hypertophy reps will benefit from you being stronger (you can use heavier weights on higher reps)

4x8-12 is basically with your 50-70% RM.
If your max bench is 135, your 8-12 would probably be 70-95, whereas if your 1RM is 315, your working 8-12 would be around 155-220lbs. Its how you grow, you break the muscle down in your workout, when you rest and recover, your muscles adapts and grow.

If your goal is to increase your core lifts (squats, bench, deads, maybe OHP), then a routine like 5x5, 5/3/1, or anything less than 5 reps on compound movements will be what you would be looking for. An example of a hypertophy routine would be PHAT (5 days a week) or Push, Pull, Legs (6 days a week) where there is alot of volume, assistance/isolation exercises, and the focus of those days is on reps



Yeah thats what I do. When I can hit 11-12 reps on 3-4 of 4 sets then I increase the weight the following week. If I get say:
Bench Press 175 x 11,11,10, 9
Then I redo it again next week aiming for at least 12,12,11,10



Its okay to start at a lower weight and to practice form with the bar as well. If strength is your goal, and your body is now used to lifting, its good to switch to a strength routine now.

I feel that I am used to lifting now, as the soreness I normally have is usually gone the next day, instead of next week.. For working out, I just picked a low number and added 5lbs a week, I didn't try to find my 1RM when I started. I just picked a number(100lbs) and added 5 a week. So if I switched to a 5x5 I don't think I would change much in the way of how much weight I add each week.

I guess, I should mention that, I am after both strength and Strength endurance. My question is, if you focus on just low reps and strength, are you then neglecting the endurance aspect? By that I mean, strength endurance, the ability to lift heavy weight for a extended period of time. I am sure you guys know what I mean by strength endurance. If I switch over, wont I be sacrificing that training aspect? What use is strength with out the muscular/strength endurance to back it up. (I am doing cardio separately)

I promise I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.

I understand about having to break them down to make them grow and adapt, but doesn't that kind of ultra light lifting lead to people with more show then go? Who look strong but are not really?

edit to add. JT123, can you tell me more about the routine I am currently doing? 4x10 on the compounds, adding 5lbs a week. I would love some direct insight as to what it is exactly doing for me, and how it can be changed keeping my goals in mind.
 
You must have missed the entire "properly directed and applied" part, eh?

I can see how ego would never play a part in your gym life if you strive for nothing but mediocrity, though.
I don't think you understand the difference between ego and drive. Thanks for being an ass though.
 
I don't think you understand the difference between ego and drive. Thanks for being an ass though.
I'm well aware.

I'm also aware that the two are not mutually exclusive.

I don't think I've been an ass anywhere.
 
I have another interesting thing to consider. I have been pain free today, but when I was on the bike today(I have cardio on off days) my legs were really sore. Like sore that it made it really hard to get through the hour on the bike. I ended up having to split it in to 20minute chunks, and get off and walk around for a minute or so.

So I am wondering, as a big obese guy trying to loose weight, is tredmill and elliptical safe for my knees and such? I have not tried it, but I don't want to risk hurting my self. I wonder, if doing weights will always make cardio hurt.
 
I feel that I am used to lifting now, as the soreness I normally have is usually gone the next day, instead of next week.. For working out, I just picked a low number and added 5lbs a week, I didn't try to find my 1RM when I started. I just picked a number(100lbs) and added 5 a week. So if I switched to a 5x5 I don't think I would change much in the way of how much weight I add each week.

I guess, I should mention that, I am after both strength and Strength endurance. My question is, if you focus on just low reps and strength, are you then neglecting the endurance aspect? By that I mean, strength endurance, the ability to lift heavy weight for a extended period of time. I am sure you guys know what I mean by strength endurance. If I switch over, wont I be sacrificing that training aspect? What use is strength with out the muscular/strength endurance to back it up. (I am doing cardio separately)

I promise I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand.
Its okay I get it.
As I mentioned in the previous post, when you get stronger, you're able to lift more on your higher reps. If you stick with higher reps with a lack of strength stimulus, you won't be able to progress to lifting decent weight for higher reps. Guys who are able to bench around 350-400ish, can rep out 225 for a good amount of reps, maybe around 12-18 rep range.

To lift weights for higher reps means its going to be at a lower percentage than your 1 rep max. You can't really lift your 90-100% for more than 12 reps. If you are, then it wasn't really your 90-100%

Most programs have assistance work in the higher rep ranges. 5/3/1's Boring But Big (BBB) is one of the more popular variations of it, and there's higher rep work done.
IIRC its something like this:

Squats 531 (based on the week -- this is the main strength portion of the day)
Squats 5x10
Assistance work eg. Glute ham raise or Core work 5x10

Also, yes you would be making progression similarly to what you have been doing up until now. Usually 5lbs for upper body lifts, and 10lbs per lower body lifts. But, you're working on lower reps with higher weights. I guess you can look at it as income. Working a job that pays $25/h at 20h, or working $8-10 for 40h a week. In terms of making money and saving, you'll be making more with the $25... its probably not the best example, but its somewhat similar.

I understand about having to break them down to make them grow and adapt, but doesn't that kind of ultra light lifting lead to people with more show then go? Who look strong but are not really?

They aren't as strong as competitive powerlifters or olympic lifters, but they're still pretty strong regardless. I mentioned it in another thread, guys I know who are active in bodybuilding have deadlifts around the 500s (some higher), and bench over 315. They're also able to rep out a decent amount of pullups and dips at their weight (220lbs+).
Now if you're comparing them to a fighter, then its specifically technique related. It would also be a different stimulus so they'd have to adapt over time. But the combat sport athlete who lacks strength and muscle aren't stronger. They are most definitely more technical, and tactical though.

edit to add. JT123, can you tell me more about the routine I am currently doing? 4x10 on the compounds, adding 5lbs a week. I would love some direct insight as to what it is exactly doing for me, and how it can be changed keeping my goals in mind.

4x10 sounds like hypertrophy (mass) work.
As a beginner 5/3/1 BBB would be okay for your goals. Its a good, proven program, and there's higher rep range which would be okay for your strength-endurance aspect. The priority of the program is to build strength, anything will be a byproduct.

I have another interesting thing to consider. I have been pain free today, but when I was on the bike today(I have cardio on off days) my legs were really sore. Like sore that it made it really hard to get through the hour on the bike. I ended up having to split it in to 20minute chunks, and get off and walk around for a minute or so.

So I am wondering, as a big obese guy trying to loose weight, is tredmill and elliptical safe for my knees and such? I have not tried it, but I don't want to risk hurting my self. I wonder, if doing weights will always make cardio hurt.

Could be that you're still tied / sore from the previous lower body session / day. Did you do cardio right after a leg / squat day or the following day? Or is cardio for that duration a completely new for you?
 
I do squats every time I lift. So yea, cardio will always come after a leg day.. In the past I could ride for a long time, but I never lifted. I hate the hard ass seat they have there..

Now this is were I get confused, you said my routine now is mass work. So is it one of those things were, on my 4x10, there will come a time, when I cant get past a certain weight, EVER? Unless I switch to a low rep/high weight scheme?

I just don't understand why you cant work for both, strength and strength endurance at the same time? You said that 1rm strength has a effect on strength endurance. But doesn't a low rep/high weight scheme only work fast twitch, don't you need more reps for the slow twitch muscles?

I guess that is the reason I choose 4x10, in my mind it worked both, strength and muscle endurance. But your making it sound like I'm not going to be making many more strength gains after a while. You said lack of strength stimulus, isn't adding 5lbs a week adding to the strength stimulus?

This whole thing is confusing. I just want useable strength. what is the point of lifting heavy things If I can only do it 5 times..

I appreciate your help mate, its just, this whole thing is confusing as hell.
 
I just don't understand why you cant work for both, strength and strength endurance at the same time? You said that 1rm strength has a effect on strength endurance. But doesn't a low rep/high weight scheme only work fast twitch, don't you need more reps for the slow twitch muscles?

I guess that is the reason I choose 4x10, in my mind it worked both, strength and muscle endurance. But your making it sound like I'm not going to be making many more strength gains after a while. You said lack of strength stimulus, isn't adding 5lbs a week adding to the strength stimulus?

This whole thing is confusing. I just want useable strength. what is the point of lifting heavy things If I can only do it 5 times..

I appreciate your help mate, its just, this whole thing is confusing as hell.

When will you ever find yourself lifting things that weigh over 300lb in a real life situation? Things that weigh that much will have such an unwieldy shape such that you probably couldn't lift them on your own anyhow (unless you're capable of dead lifting over 500lb and similarly strong with the pull-up or some such).

In any case, you can work for both strength and strength endurance. All you have to do is increase your current 5 rep max by about 100lb. Then you'll probably find that you can do your previous 5 rep max a helluva lot more times than just 5 reps.

The question is HOW you increase your 5 rep max.
 
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