Explain the liberal thought process on Illegal Aliens

[RockstarChris]

Your understanding of the position is wrong (and silly). So obviously no one will explain the process to get to that fake position.

Ed: Excluding other people who want to fight strawmen.

way to not answer the question like usual.

 

[Fugazy]

As I said, you are splitting hairs. 100% of any illegal that buys something pays sales tax. It does not take much to understand what he meant. He made a good point and you are just trying to counter it with a super narrow definition that makes little sense.

When you are trying to make a point about the value that illegals carry in the US economy, and your agenda is to represent that aspect of the issue of illegals, it is extremely important.

There is no group where 100% of the population pays sales tax or property tax. In fact, it is downright likely that illegals pay less property tax per capita or as a group than legal citizens. And for the reasons I mentioned it is also highly likely that they contribute less to the total of collected sales tax due to their regular use of cash under-the-table transactions.

But don't let that get in the way of a "good point", bag boy.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

In general liberals see more benefits from diversity then weakness.....

In my opinion this is the Boogeyman of Democrats...

1 million people legally immigrate to this country yearly.. Just because we don't want every person who crosses an imaginary line to just move here at will... We're assholes? seriously?

Can you name three developed countries that let people just move to their country at will and live there as a citizen?

 

[Buck Swope]

And, of course, I was referring to via opposing immigration laws...

Not so much "opposing". Trump just issued more work visas. That is the main way immigrants come to this country and become "illegal". They over-stay their visa's. If Trump had mentioned he was going to do this on the campaign trail he would have lost.

 

[Gandhi]

In my opinion this is the Boogeyman of Democrats...

1 million people legally immigrate to this country yearly.. Just because we don't want every person who crosses an imaginary line to just move here at will... We're assholes? seriously?

Can you name three developed countries that let people just move to their country at will and live there as a citizen?

I think you are missing what I am saying.

I am not saying being concerned about the border makes anyone an asshole, it's a legit concern among a long list of legit concerns. You are only an "asshole" when it becomes some cause de jour that Trumps all others, at that point it gets purely tribal.

What I am saying is that there will be debate about the pluses and minuses of all kinds of immigration and in that debate the left will tend to see more pluses in diversity and conservatives more strength in tribalism.

Both sides have an emo to them but these days I'm seeing more rationality from liberals, at least along the lines as say a JVS presented it.

 

[Mark Hunts FIST]

I think you are missing what I am saying.

I am not saying being concerned about the border makes anyone an asshole, it's a legit concern among a long list of legit concerns. You are only an "asshole" when it becomes some cause de jour that Trumps all others, at that point it gets purely tribal.

What I am saying is that there will be debate about the pluses and minuses of all kinds of immigration and in that debate the left will tend to see more pluses in diversity and conservatives more strength in tribalism.

Both sides have an emo to them but these days I'm seeing more rationality from liberals, at least along the lines as say a JVS presented it.

That's fair. I would assume that's because liberals in general are more diverse.

 

[Philo-Publius]

Not so much "opposing". Trump just issued more work visas. That is the main way immigrants come to this country and become "illegal". They over-stay their visa's. If Trump had mentioned he was going to do this on the campaign trail he would have lost.

We were discussion the current liberal perspective on immigration laws.

 

[m52nickerson]

When you are trying to make a point about the value that illegals carry in the US economy, and your agenda is to represent that aspect of the issue of illegals, it is extremely important.

There is no group where 100% of the population pays sales tax or property tax. In fact, it is downright likely that illegals pay less property tax per capita or as a group than legal citizens. And for the reasons I mentioned it is also highly likely that they contribute less to the total of collected sales tax due to their regular use of cash under-the-table transactions.

But don't let that get in the way of a "good point", bag boy.

It's downright likely? Anything to back up those claims? Do you think illegals are going to a black market to buy there clothing and beer? If so, were are these?

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ow-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

 

[Buck Swope]

We were discussion the current liberal perspective on immigration laws.

And I just pointed out how both parties want immigrants to come here and work for companies but conservatives have to dance around the subject(especially when trying to get elected).

The "perspective", as you said, 'aint so fucking different. Wake up.

 

[Liquid Smoke]

It's probably been said a few times already, but their thought process is "if we let them in they'll vote for us".

 

[Philo-Publius]

And I just pointed out how both parties want immigrants to come here and work for companies but conservatives have to dance around the subject(especially when trying to get elected).

The "perspective", as you said, 'aint so fucking different. Wake up.

The "perspective" the OP was referring to was a general perspective (not what goes on behind closed doors).

 

[Buck Swope]

The "perspective" the OP was referring to was a general perspective (not what goes on behind closed doors).

Well whoopty fucking doo the thread grew into a decent conversation, yet you can't hold your end up.

I'm shocked.

 

[Fugazy]

It's downright likely? Anything to back up those claims? Do you think illegals are going to a black market to buy there clothing and beer? If so, were are these?

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ow-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes/

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

Lol.

Not every purchase, thats nowhere near what I said.

I said more likely. Just like they are more likely to be paid under the table. It's not hard to understand, it's not even up for debate. In fact, even reputable places will knowingly employ illegals and pay them under the table.

Many moons ago I was in high school, at 15yo I was working my first actual job at a high end Italian grocery market. This grocery chain was the standardbearer for organic, local, fancy-pants whatever, they had about 20 locations and now they have dozens more and wayyy back then they had annual sales approaching a billion dollars. They had sponsorship deals with the MLB and NBA teams in my city and won award after award as a best place to work, for the quality of food etc etc. Even at this place which underwent countless inspections for everything you could imagine from health to employee-employer relation compliance nearly the entire seafood market division, approximately a hundred employees, were illegals from mexico who were paid in cash and still are. In fact the guy who was the district seafood manager (who is a citizen) was the fella who woukd arrange to get the labor from Mexico, and of course, they were all his "cousins". Guess what, none of them owned houses despite being 18-35yo employed adults. Most of them rented, (or more accurately "stayed") and paid in cash to live in over-crowded houses with multiple family members. And when one of his "cousins" was deported or moved back to Mexico, the owners would just ask him if he had another "cousin" who needed work. That aside, he is a nice guy, in fact we still get together now and then to watch boxing or UFC events. But I digress...

When I talk about cash transactions it would mostly be for things like auto repairs, handy projects around the house, and especially childcare. Again, it is a point of pride, especially in the illegal latino community to keep that money away from Uncle Sam. There are even credit unions and wire transfer businesses in these communities that straight up will let latinos cash checks for free but will charge black or white customers.

Mind you, these are the people who get assistance for utilities, healthcare and whatever else you can imagine, usually coordinated by social workers and community centers dedicated to helping illegals.

And you know whats really, really, funny, there is a huge black market for goods like clothing and groceries. Ever hear of people selling their foodstamps? Boosters that steal expensive grocery items and resell them? Ever seen a guy pushing a shopping cart full of socks, t-shirts and boxers, selling them 2 for 5? It exists. I don't know your experience or where you grew up, but in any city, you can find these things happening and a lot of people, entire neighborhoods, get by via buying and selling goods this way.

But please tell me more about how this isn't really happening.

 

[Deleted member 196663]

The liberal thought process is based on countering the most extremist conservative position, and vice versa. The rational people are ignored while the dogmatists rally the troops.

 

[Rod1]

When you are trying to make a point about the value that illegals carry in the US economy, and your agenda is to represent that aspect of the issue of illegals, it is extremely important.

There is no group where 100% of the population pays sales tax or property tax. In fact, it is downright likely that illegals pay less property tax per capita or as a group than legal citizens. And for the reasons I mentioned it is also highly likely that they contribute less to the total of collected sales tax due to their regular use of cash under-the-table transactions.

But don't let that get in the way of a "good point", bag boy.

The thing is that those drawbacks actually are a "good point" in favor of regularization.

If you allow them to be formally employed then they will be properly taxed and more likely to leave their communities.

 

[Rod1]

Ok. Healthcare was more important than the illegals. That's fine.
They had majority in senate and house from 2007-2011. So.....



Imagine a world where they took that opportunity to make 11 million people legal then used 11 million people to help nominate Hillary who the pushed and passed Universal Health Care. Hit this shit brother.

Again, you give these people too much credit, just look at the overall ineptitude of elected officials, do you really think they can think that far forward?

 

[m52nickerson]

Lol.

Not every purchase, thats nowhere near what I said.

I said more likely. Just like they are more likely to be paid under the table. It's not hard to understand, it's not even up for debate. In fact, even reputable places will knowingly employ illegals and pay them under the table.

Many moons ago I was in high school, at 15yo I was working my first actual job at a high end Italian grocery market. This grocery chain was the standardbearer for organic, local, fancy-pants whatever, they had about 20 locations and now they have dozens more and wayyy back then they had annual sales approaching a billion dollars. They had sponsorship deals with the MLB and NBA teams in my city and won award after award as a best place to work, for the quality of food etc etc. Even at this place which underwent countless inspections for everything you could imagine from health to employee-employer relation compliance nearly the entire seafood market division, approximately a hundred employees, were illegals from mexico who were paid in cash and still are. In fact the guy who was the district seafood manager (who is a citizen) was the fella who woukd arrange to get the labor from Mexico, and of course, they were all his "cousins". Guess what, none of them owned houses despite being 18-35yo employed adults. Most of them rented, (or more accurately "stayed") and paid in cash to live in over-crowded houses with multiple family members. And when one of his "cousins" was deported or moved back to Mexico, the owners would just ask him if he had another "cousin" who needed work. That aside, he is a nice guy, in fact we still get together now and then to watch boxing or UFC events. But I digress...

When I talk about cash transactions it would mostly be for things like auto repairs, handy projects around the house, and especially childcare. Again, it is a point of pride, especially in the illegal latino community to keep that money away from Uncle Sam. There are even credit unions and wire transfer businesses in these communities that straight up will let latinos cash checks for free but will charge black or white customers.

Mind you, these are the people who get assistance for utilities, healthcare and whatever else you can imagine, usually coordinated by social workers and community centers dedicated to helping illegals.

And you know whats really, really, funny, there is a huge black market for goods like clothing and groceries. Ever hear of people selling their foodstamps? Boosters that steal expensive grocery items and resell them? Ever seen a guy pushing a shopping cart full of socks, t-shirts and boxers, selling them 2 for 5? It exists. I don't know your experience or where you grew up, but in any city, you can find these things happening and a lot of people, entire neighborhoods, get by via buying and selling goods this way.

But please tell me more about how this isn't really happening.

As I asked, were are your citations? You saying it is happening is not enough.

 

[Fugazy]

As I asked, were are your citations? You saying it is happening is not enough.

Have you ever lived in a part of a city that isn't predominantly white? I'm honestly asking. Are you even from the US?

You want citations of illegals being employed and paid under the table, and goods/services being sold for cash?

Come on man, if that is what you are asking for you are being dishonest to the point that your credibilty (on the internet of all places LOL) is shot.

Why would you even act like these things dont happen? Why on earth would I make up the examples I gave you? Any number of posters on this site could tell you similar stories, it's not a rare or unique experience.

Edit:
Or do you want citations of my personal experince?

Or citations that prove less than 100% of illegals pay sales and/or property tax?

Because you are still being incredibly dishonest or playing dumb if any of the above is what you claim to be looking for.

 

[Philo-Publius]

The "perspective" the OP was referring to was a general perspective (not what goes on behind closed doors).

Can't hold up my end because I'm not interested in your rabbit hole?

 

[A.S. Deep]

Liberals feel bad for the poor so they want to help. They mean well, even if it leads to shit like crime and wasted money in welfare.