Excessive promotion of progressive values ... annoying AF | Page 10

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by KBE6EKCTAH_CCP, Jul 16, 2017.

  1. m52nickerson EXTERMINATE!

    m52nickerson
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    No I don't know you are right. You were trying to argue that those things infringe on your rights when they don't. That is not a argument of semantics.
     
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  2. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    So you're against teaching modern science in the classroom? Nobody is demanding anyone abide by any doctrine, but demanding that they ignore the scientific reality to please you isn't a right you have either..They are educating your children in the latest science, which obviously you didn't receive.

    It's a far jump from giving trans-people rights to make their own choice and someone demanding that you give your kid hormones. I definitely don't agree that a parent should be forced to give their kids surgery or medicine that isn't lifesaving.
     
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  3. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    I have the right to raise my child as I see fit. If he wants hormones and is a child, it is my right to say no. Regardless, you're using this point as subterfuge because it's irrelevant if it actually infringes on my rights by definition or not. The actual conversation takes place in our conception of right and wrong.

    Do you think that Bill C-16 is right? Do you think that Bill 89 is right? These are illiberal policies that reasonable people object to. Again, you live your life, I live mine. Don't tell me how to raise my kids, I won't tell you.
     
    #183
  4. Devout Pessimist Tragic Vision

    Devout Pessimist
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    Teach the controversy. :D
     
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  5. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    You ignored most of what I said.

    Tell me what rights transfolk don't have that others do?
     
    #185
  6. jgarner Black Belt

    jgarner
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    How about the right to use the bathroom of the gender they identify with? How about the constant discrimination in the workplace and society? If it were up to you, they'd be allowed to exist in the dregs of society out of public view.

    And actually, I specifically referenced most of what you said.
     
    #186
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  7. helltoupee Brown Belt

    helltoupee
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    I just read most of Bill 89, Supporting Children, Youth and Families Act, 2017 and I'm failing to see where it says it is 'illegal to deny your own children' transgender transitioning.

    What the bill does say is that if a child is suffering with physical, emotional, or psychological distress for any reason (with gender being identified as one of them), that parents cannot use 'physical or mechanical restraints' to stop them from seeking help. In other words, you can't chain Junior to a wall if he is insisting he wants to see a doctor. That's a far cry from little johnny saying he kinda thinks he wants to play with dollies, and the state swooping in to charge the parents with a crime, and then giving him a TS operation.

    It seems that the bill is more aimed at insuring that children get proper healthcare (especially targeting First Nations and aboriginal tribes), and having gender issues just so happens to be one of those psychological issues included. It doesn't seem to be some new piece of legislation that is directly targeting parents for not allowing their kids to transition at all.

    I'm not saying you are wrong - just that I couldn't find the parts where it dictates what you are stating above, and as always, am open for some clarification.

    As to your other sentiments about not wanting specific agendas pushed down your throat as legal mandates, I agree completely.
     
    #187
  8. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    I'm quickly losing any respect I had for you. Why is it that people who adhere to your beliefs, when pushed, lash out with ad homs about how evil people are who disagree? You're just a bigot who hates traditional values. If it were up to you Christians would be killed on the street. Is that supposed to make my points more meaningful or something?

    We don't build laws on subjective interpretations. I don't get to use the carpool lane because I identify as two people. Nonetheless, the bathroom issue is overblown. If you make an effort to live as a woman, nobody would have an issue with you in the woman's bathroom, mostly because no one would know. What we object to is full grown men who look like men sharing bathrooms with young girls. That's not a right.

    Alluding to general discrimination doesn't add to your argument as it doesn't cite anything specific, so I'll ignore it.

    This is all fringe stuff, anyway. The crux of the argument, plain and simple, can be reduced to one question- do you agree with laws that legislate pronoun use?
     
    #188
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  9. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    The reality is that this bill simply sets a precedent. In reality, it would be extremely rare to find yourself in a situation where the state takes your child, although this is partly because being trans is so rare.

    Consider that your child would need to be trans first. Then, they would need to be hindered in such a way that they cannot cope with superficial solutions. Furthermore, there would need to be an explicit disagreement with the parents on which route to take. We're already at insanely low odds and we haven't even reached the formal complaint stage. But in theory, the government reserves the right to intervene.
     
    #189
  10. m52nickerson EXTERMINATE!

    m52nickerson
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    Damn @jgarner you triggered him.
     
    #190
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  11. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    Is this your concession? I'm still waiting for your response to my post.

    I'll ask you the same question- do you agree with laws that legislate pronoun use?
     
    #191
  12. helltoupee Brown Belt

    helltoupee
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    The reality is that you seem to over-dramatize what the bill is specifically stating.

    Only if said parents use "physical or mechanical force" to restrain them, from seeking help for physical, psychological, or emotional distress (of which gender related psychological problems is part of).

    That's a lot different than saying the state has made it illegal to deny your children transgender therapy. It's saying you can't lock them up in a cage if they are suffering from an problem and wish to seek medical/psychological attention.
     
    #192
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  13. m52nickerson EXTERMINATE!

    m52nickerson
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    It depends on the law. If it is something like NY Cities law regarding landlords and tenants I have no problem with it because it is there to address harassment. If it is just a law for the general public, then no because of free speech.
     
    #193
  14. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    The law has more than one use, sure, but that doesn't mean that what I said is invalid. If denying your child hormones causes enough distress and charges are filed, as a parent, you could lose the final word. That's worrying, as it should be to anyone.
     
    #194
  15. helltoupee Brown Belt

    helltoupee
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    I just read Bill C-16, and it simply adds gender identity to discrimination laws.

    This is the entire bill:

    It's just saying you can't discriminate against someone, or deny them rights, etc., based on their gender identity.

    You stating that this is "regulating pronouns" would be the equivalent of me saying that discrimination laws "regulate people from talking about how old they are".
     
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  16. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    That's what I figured. Hopefully you and your ilk stop legislating speech based on someone's subjective interpretation of reality.

    I can only imagine how you would react if I, as a Christian, demanded that people address me with the notion that God exists and insist that you don't profess your atheistic belief around me, as God is central to my identity, and it offends me personally when you deny that he exists. You guys are in fantasy land.
     
    #196
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  17. m52nickerson EXTERMINATE!

    m52nickerson
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    Well if you did that I would say that would be against free speech, and then tell you about the true God....Odin.

    Now if you filed suit against your land lord because he mocked you religion in every meeting I would support you fully in that.
     
    #197
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  18. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    Right, and part of that so-called right is using made-up words and pronouns at someone's whim. If you believe you're a woman, why am I forced to play along by law? I wouldn't ask anyone else to play along with my version of reality, especially if my reality can change on a dime. That's to say, I wouldn't request this by law.

    Notice that at no point did I say I wouldn't refer to someone as they want, but passing laws to ensure this is illiberal.
     
    #198
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  19. dontsnitch Gold Belt

    dontsnitch
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    The actual comparison would be if I filed a suit against my landlord because he denied that God exists, because God is central to my identity.
     
    #199
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  20. helltoupee Brown Belt

    helltoupee
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    For the record, I don't agree that giving children hormones should be a legal directive, and I can understand that laws are usually ambiguous enough to be interpreted in different ways.

    What you are saying reminds me of that movie Emily Rose - where parents were put on trial for denying their kid medical care because they thought her problem was spiritually based. She died of malnutrition/dehydration. Maybe in *some* cases your rights as a parent end where a child's right to a happy life begins.
     
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