Evolution will no longer be taught in Turkish schools

[Jim Bob]

So if he created them, then why can't they evolve. Man has evolved from worrying about, food, shelter and living until the next day, and now food and shelter is not an issue for 90% of the population.
I have just never seen the reason for a Christian to be so resistant to evolution. If God created animals and then it is possible the since he gave man free thought, then animals version of free thought is evolution.

I am speaking of macro evolution and you are not! If you can show proof of macro evolution, please do.

 

[DoomPatrol]

Would love to respond if only you could clean up the post

Feel free to respond with something of substance now that I've fixed it.

 

[ripskater]

 

[MicroBrew]

I'm not not the biggest fan of Erdogan but even his regime isn't kidnapping Kurds off the street and torturing them to death. There's levels here and the secular military was more brutal towards the Kurds and never offered them the sorts of concessions Erdogan did. Things are going South fast but that's to be expected when you have multiple insurgencies flaring up, 2 million refugees over the span of just a few years, and one of the most vicious wars in the world today raging on your border.

Erdogan's Islamism at least theoretically allows for a basis of shared identity and reconciliation with the Kurds but the secular ethno-nationalism of the Kemalists does not and that difference has manifested itself in their policies. Erdogan is definitely bad news but if your defense of the near genocidal policy of the secularists is "B-but but Erdogan" then you're not doing a very good job.

Give Erdogan time. The Secularists have had many decades to persecute the Kurds. With the high Kurdish TFR, Erdogan will have to make a choice (assuming he or his choosen successor is in power) between Islamism and Kurdish ethnic identity.

Considering Erdogan was wiling to look the other way as ISIS slaughtered Kurds, it is very likely he too will start engaging in practices similar to what the Secularists did. He has used the Coup to do what he was planning for a long time, imprison scores of people he considers a threat and clamped down on the press. The parliment recently revoked Judicial immunity , a move seen as partly an attempt to go after Kurdish lawmakers and the pro Kuridsh HDP.

 

[ShadBo]

You know what I mean. Evolving into a different kind. An example would be a crocodile evolving into a duck. If there are examples, show the proof!

Why would a crocodile ever evolve into a duck? You seem to be confused about what evolution is.

Here is a great example of speciation in plants:

Spoiler

Salamanders:

Spoiler

Finches:

Spoiler

This isn't even touching the fossil record or what we see in the study of genetics.

 

[ripskater]

 

[MicroBrew]

Then perhaps we should start calling it a hypothesis then because it's definitely unproven and unobserved.

It is called a Theory because it has gone past the hypothesis stage , by accumlating a vast body of evidence substanting it.

 

[Squarechoke]

Lol, what are we even arguing about now? You got my definition and if you'd like to present your argument as to why that makes me wrong... And about what...id be interested in seeing it.

I didn't argue, I just said that perhaps I should extend the same courtesy to you as you've done to me.

But it's really about that you've made statements about how evolution doesn't stretch beyond kinds, which becomes a very pointless and weird statement if everything that has a common ancestor is a kind, which would be under some debate. To really make that discussion go into clear detail you'd of course have to list all the kinds to show where you think the kinds started, etc.

 

[ripskater]

Why would a crocodile ever evolve into a duck? You seem to be confused about what evolution is.

Here is a great example of speciation in plants:

Spoiler

Salamanders:

Spoiler

Finches:

Spoiler

i

This isn't even touching the fossil record or what we see in the study of genetics.

Speciation is not macro evolution. There are many species within a kind.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Lol @ Ripskater talking about evolution.

This guy thinks demons controlmyour computer.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

turkey and republicans have so much in common

 

[TheComebackKid]

It is called a Theory because it has gone past the hypothesis stage , by accumlating a vast body of evidence substanting it.

Still unproven and unobserved(doesn't even make sense). To dismiss it =/= dismissing science.

 

[ShadBo]

Speciation is not macro evolution. There are many species within a kind.

Come back to me when you can answer the phylogeny challenge.

Until then I reject any reference to your vague use of the word "kind" and will stick with the scientific definition.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Give Erdogan time. The Secularists have had many decades to persecute the Kurds. With the high Kurdish TFR, Erdogan will have to make a choice (assuming he or his choosen successor is in power) between Islamism and Kurdish ethnic identity.

Islamism isn't mutually exclusive to the Kurdish Ethnic identity the way secular Turkish nationalism is as evidenced by the fact that the Kurds were a key part of Erdogan's base. That said Islamism also isn't mutually exclusive to Turkish nationalism but Erdogan is frequently leaning on a pan-Islamic identity that includes the Arabs in his international posture.

Considering Erdogan was wiling to look the other way as ISIS slaughtered Kurds, it is very likely he too will start engaging in practices similar to what the Secularists did. He has used the Coup to do what he was planning for a long time, imprison scores of people he considers a threat and clamped down on the press. The parliment recently revoked Judicial immunity , a move seen as partly an attempt to go after Kurdish lawmakers and the pro Kuridsh HDP.

9/10 you should fear a military leadership more than a civilian one. They're in the business of killing and they do it well as the Kurds in the 90s found out. Erdogan has purged the military and police forces to a point where they're arguably at they're weakest ever, that means it's more difficult to wield them against the citizenry. All that BS about this or that law being passed doesn't matter if the guys with guns can't do their jobs to enforce it and similarly it doesn't matter what's on paper if the guys with guns want to kill Kurds.

 

[lecter]

Sure. You're banking on Turkey losing power, influence, military strength, etc. as a result of this and other forms of religious extremism. And conversely, you imply that by Turkey not doing the crazy religious thing, they would gain power we don't want them to have. That way of looking at it is putting far too much emphasis on one polarizing factor.

And even if you turn out to be partially prophetic, the sweet spot that where your idea lies is a potentially mythical place where Turkey goes to Islamist shit, but also doesn't become more of a problem for the world. That's not what we see when we look at the world. We see that the broken shit holes are a massive problem. And other radical shit holes, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, are not crumbling or marginalized.

hm

I see it like that, there are roughly 4 possible outcomes:
1. The overall situation in Turkey, when it comes to politics and society, will approximately be the same it was the last couple of years
2. The situation improves, Turkey further embraces liberalism, secularism, individual freedom and human rights. They'll still have a different culture and Islam, which isn't a problem but they'll also be a reliable partner in a close alliance with Western nations and we don't even have to feel bad or guilty about it (opposed to Saudi Arabia etc and to a certain degree opposed to Turkey right now and the last years)
3. Turkey becomes more radical, Islam will be a replacement for a Western legal system, the government and military gains more power, human rights, freedom of speech, secularism, individual freedom etc. are at a low. Turkey's economy is in trouble and they have problems keeping up with the Western world.
4. Turkey becomes more radical, Islam will be a replacement for a Western legal system, the government and military gains more power, human rights, freedom of speech, secularism, individual freedom etc. are at a low. Turkey is doing extremely well, have a strong economy, can spend a lot of money for military and geopolitical interests etc

I think it's absolutely irrational to believe in either 1 or 2, therefore, I prefer 3 over 4. Is this really so fucked or are we just in disagreement over how likely 1 and 2 are?

1 is already over. We're done with this. It's evidently wrong. I got much worse and there are not indicators whatsoever that anybody will reverse it.
2 is what 'we' and especially Europe were working towards for years now. You can't possibly do more than they've done.
TheGreatA already described it very accurately:

Turkey was long the West's "pet project" to create a Westernized, secular, Muslim-majority nation. Tons of money and effort were poured into building up its infrastructure, and sometimes "undemocratic" measures were resorted to, in order to uphold secularism in the country.

It's becoming obvious that the project has failed. It's best to count our losses and move on.

The liberal mentality is to keep throwing money at the problem, hoping it eventually goes away, as living standards improve. But it's plain and obvious that a lack of funding here, isn't the problem. It's the lack of a will.

I know this "give them the right ideas and means and everything will improve" sounds great. This way of thinking has a long history and was promoted by many smart philosophers and it still sounds good in 2017 if a smart and eloquent guy like Sam Harris talks about it on a TV show.
It's not backed up by the history of nations and empires.
What happens when you have a radicalized shithole and you can't make them or want them to be your allies is what we see in today's shitholes in the Arabic world, ISIS & Co.
What happens when a radical nation is prosperous and highly capable and they aren't your allies is we saw with the third Reich, Austrian Empires etc. In other words, in both world wars.

 

[bVlgari]

In my experience, they were doing ok as a secular country. Trouble started when the US took out Saddam and the Kurds started to make demands.
They just always also had a lot of Nationalism mixed in as well. That is always dangerous.

I have been to Turkey several times and have many Turkish friends. I think they can function just fine as a secular nation.
I mean Erdogan's version of Islam in the 90's or the 2000's worked fine. He is just using it now to establish his power.
An issue we wouldn't have today if the US didn't meddle in other people's affairs once again.

I have many turkish friends as well, and this is what they always tell me. It's all the wests fault. Everyone who disagrees with turkish interests is a western/jewish conspirator, a PKK/Gülen terrororist/sympathizer or just afraid of the emerging turkish power.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

Ken Hovind on evolution. Lmaoooo

 

[Jim Bob]

Why would a crocodile ever evolve into a duck? You seem to be confused about what evolution is.

Here is a great example of speciation in plants:

Spoiler

Salamanders:

Spoiler

Finches:

Spoiler

This isn't even touching the fossil record or what we see in the study of genetics.

Still no proof of macro evolution. Please try again. I'm waiting.

 

[ShadBo]

Still no proof of macro evolution. Please try again. I'm waiting.

I have provided you proof of speciation.

What you referred to as crocodiles changing into ducks doesn't exist.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I have many turkish friends as well, and this is what they always tell me. It's all the wests fault. Everyone who disagrees with turkish interests is a western/jewish conspirator, a PKK/Gülen terrororist/sympathizer or just afraid of the emerging turkish power.

Muslims in general like conspiracy theories because they absolve their coreligionists of guilt

"Of course I condemn the terrorists but we all know that 9/11 was really done by the CIA/Mossad/MI6/Jews etc"