Every Champ Except Holloway and Whittaker* are accomplished Wrestlers

[Huligani]

Pretty sure Robert Whitaker was representing Australia in wrestling at the Commonwealth games until Dana said no... though I understand Australia isn’t known for its wrestling credentials.

Yeah, also Whittaker wanted to eventually wrestle in the Olympics so he had the ambition.

 

[Pierced7681]

Jones outwrestled Cormier, who was an Olympic wrestler - better than anyone GSP has wrestled against in MMA.

When did Jones outwrestle Cormier? Their fights were mostly striking. Jones got a takedown or two on Cormier late after he gassed out in the first fight, he hardly ourwrestled him.

GSP meanwhile legit outwrestled prime Kos in their first fight.

 

[Human Bass]

We still haven't seen high level boxing in MMA.

We've seen high level
Wrestling
BJJ
Kickboxing
And MT


The boxing standard is still super low in mma

High level boxers clinch all the time, and if you clinch in mma the boxing disappears having to worry about knees, take downs and such.

 

[chamcham]

America has a long tradition of wrestling. But not as much of a history with Jiu Jitsu.

Do you think wrestling is dominating MMA today because it is more effective than Jiu Jitsu? Or are Americans better at adapting wrestling to MMA because the talent pool is so deep and quality wrestling coaching is much more widespread?

Do you see Greco, freestyle, folk, and catch wrestling taking a more prominent place in the future of the UFC (and MMA in general)?

 

[MMAart]

It is probably true that GSP has never wrestled anyone in an MMA fight with the wrestling skills of DC, but that doesn't mean that he isn't possibly a better MMA wrestler than Jones. (the guy did say "arguably" better than Jones) GSP has completely blown away the wrestling of everyone he has faced.

How do you determine that GSP is a better MMA wrestler than Jones, if Cormier is a better MMA wrestler than everyone GSP has faced, including GSP himself?

Jones got out wrestled by Gus who defended more TD's and took Jones down himself. Just goes to show that styles make fights and it has something to do with your expectation from your opponent. Jones didn't expect it from Gus, which is probably why he got taken down (while he probably expected Bones to try for the TD), but EVERY GSP opponent has expected the takedown, yet he still gets them.

You pretty much explained why Gus took Jones down: Jones underestimated Gus' wrestling. That doesn't mean Gus' wrestling is better. He simply caught Jones off guard.

 

[Nightwish]

Rodman dominated both wrestling and basketball. A true A level athlete like you will never see in MMA.

 

[MMAart]

When did Jones outwrestle Cormier? Their fights were mostly striking. Jones got a takedown or two on Cormier late after he gassed out in the first fight, he hardly ourwrestled him.

As far as I remember, Cormier has never been outwrestled in the clinch and thrown on the floor by anyone in MMA, until he fought Jones.

GSP meanwhile legit outwrestled prime Kos in their first fight.

You're comparing "prime" Koscheck to Cormier? LOL!

This is Cormier's wrestling ability vs. a 6' 3" 260lb Josh Barnett:

 

[smiles mma]

Jon Jones isn't that accomplished although he is arguably the goat MMA wrestler

He would have been if he didn't drop out. He was on the path to the olympics

 

[Kthankss]

We still haven't seen high level boxing in MMA.

We've seen high level
Wrestling
BJJ
Kickboxing
And MT


The boxing standard is still super low in mma

I’d argue we have.... boxing will never translate into MMA in its traditional sense because of other martial arts interrupting it. Kind of similar with wrestling no? Or MMA wrestling over Greco or something more traditional.

 

[smiles mma]

And all of those guys outside of Khabib are arguably better strikers than wrestlers in MMA. The most important aspect of MMA is subjective, but in it's rawest form would most likely be considered BJJ. Today it could be considered boxing.

BJJ > BJJ & Wrestling > BJJ & Wrestling & Muay Thai > BJJ & Wrestling & Muay Thai & Boxing.

In today's game, especially if you're at a high level it's mostly expected that you have good BJJ, solid Muay Thai, and solid wrestling. What is starting to separate the elite from the others though is just how well they move with their feet and their hands. Either to outright win with them, or set up their grappling. Even Khabib used a lot of this although not necessarily executed well, he has the advantage of experience which continually improves fight over fight.

I wouldn't say any of the four big martial arts are necessarily more important than the other, although because of the desperate need for boxing it should be the focus for most fighters. They are all essential in certain situations though.

I didn't go through all the comments to see if anyone corrected you it not.

Greater than >
Less than <

I think you working bjj greater than bjj+wrestling.... Is saying you think bjj alone is better than others combined. Maybe that was your point idk

 

[TriangleMonkey]

We’ve seen far too many times what the TD threat does as far as turning great wrestlers into all sudden knocking dudes silly standing.

I agree wrestling is the best base, but not every wrestler could become a great fighter.
It takes a hard working determined type that wants to learn and hone the standup as they did their wrestling like TJ, MM, DC. A good jiu jitsu coach can streamline no-gi lessons and make a wrestler capable under submission rules.

 

[Kthankss]

Australian grappling has a heavy emphasis on roojitsu.

I'll show myself out.

Great one! Australian boxing has a huge emphasis on rooboxing aswell

 

[smiles mma]

so where is jon jnoes gold medal. henry has 2 of them so no jones isnt

He meant skill wise greatest and without having the credentials. Credentials don't equal mma wrestling skill.

 

[Talon81]

How do you determine that GSP is a better MMA wrestler than Jones, if Cormier is a better MMA wrestler than everyone GSP has faced, including GSP himself?

I didnt determine it. Nobody did. Another man said "arguably" and you then argued with him. Nobody said GSP is a better MMA wrestler than Jones. YOU are the one making huge assumptions saying DC is a better MMA wrestler than GSP. How do you say that with certainty? There is 0 evidence for that.

Since there is no exact way to measure any of this stuff the best we can do is compare what we have. GSP was never outwrestled. Jones was outwrestled by someone who isnt that good at wrestling. Virtually all of GSP's wins were primarily due to his wrestling. Jones has a more diverse striking arsenal than GSP but by the eye test, his wrestling appears to be a little less dominant than GSP.

You pretty much explained why Gus took Jones down: Jones underestimated Gus' wrestling. That doesn't mean Gus' wrestling is better. He simply caught Jones off guard.

And you think in all of GSP's fights, nobody ever surprised GSP in their attempt to takedown?
What about the fact that Jones was not able to take down Gus more than ONCE in ELEVEN attempts? Tell me when GSP has ever met such failure in his take downs, despite that his takedowns were WAY more expected than Jones' take downs.

 

[expected_loss]

correlation doesn't mean causation

 

[Pierced7681]

As far as I remember, Cormier has never been outwrestled in the clinch and thrown on the floor by anyone in MMA, until he fought Jones.

You're comparing "prime" Koscheck to Cormier? LOL!

This is Cormier's wrestling ability vs. a 6' 3" 260lb Josh Barnett:

Where did josh wrestle again in college? Is he an all American? Answer, he didn’t and he isn’t. Josh isn’t known for his wrestling, he’s known for his catch skills, there’s a difference.

Both those takedowns were after Cormier gassed. Nothing too impressive.

 

[MartinGibson86]

Jon Jones isn't that accomplished although he is arguably the goat MMA wrestler

He was a JUCO national champ and was going to wrestle for Iowa State but started his MMA career. He also won a state title his senior year and took fourth at the National Senior HS tournament----behind 3 future D1 champs. He beat a future 2x D1 AA at that tournament.

 

[Fight Professor]

He was a JUCO national champ and was going to wrestle for Iowa State but started his MMA career. He also won a state title his senior year and took fourth at the National Senior HS tournament----behind 3 future D1 champs. He beat a future 2x D1 AA at that tournament.

 

[MartinGibson86]

You know HS consists of 4 years, right?

 

[Blue_Lou]

I wonder would wrestling be less effective if they brought back soccer kicks/knees to grounded opponent ?