Ending the estate tax: Walton's - $54 Billion / Koch Bros. - $38 Billion

[PHATV]

What's the argument for taxing folks for inheiting aside from money being taxed?

It's a complicated issue. You don't want to create royalty and lords and barons and such in each state that we fought to do away with, but taxing monies that have already been taxed is also an issue. I understand the part about not creating essentially a ruling class in our country, but I'm not sure where you draw the line. The tax is what, 50%? I know it was in recent years. So if your grandparents left you a farm and you wanted to work it with your own family but it was valued at say, $10M, you had to either had to find a loan for $5M that you would spend the rest of your life paying back if you even could, or you were forced to sell the land for $10M to pay the $5M tax? That's not right.
Same with a small business that your grandparents and/or parents built into a larger business. Manufacturing plant, for example. If you inherit it free and clear at 35 years old and you've been working there since 15 and it's so successful at this point that it is valued at $15M, you owe $7.5M if you want to keep it? Have to grab a MASSIVE loan and put it on the books just to keep the family business? That's absurd.
Or think of yourself, you slave and toil to build a business and your kids can't keep it unless you set aside 100% of the value of the business in cash so that when that is taxed at 50% they then still have the other 50% to pay the tax on the business itself. Seems a bit much.

I understand the concept of the inheritance tax, but where to draw that line, what number? That is where it becomes very difficult in my eyes.

We should not penalize hard work and success. And citing individual "winners" doesn't mean there aren't myriad "losers" under the same umbrella, as I described.

The line has to be everything over "X", with "X" being a VERY high number ($50M? More?), or I would argue the money has already been taxed and leave it alone if forced to make a choice between having it and not having it (the inheritance tax). And again, where to draw the line is the problem, because you'll always be hammering good people while trying to attack others merely for having family wealth.

 

[cincymma79]

It puts excessive wealth concentrations back into the economy for the next generation to compete for instead of accelerating a growing gap between the wealthy and the poor.

Its enoght money to sustain 100 generations of a family without them contributing anything to society.

Estate tax discourages hoarding money to keep within a family, which reduces the possibility of hyperinflation from stagnating fortunes.

No it doesn’t. You won’t get any of it. It doesn’t go into the economy at all if the government is taking it. I’d be impressed if it even paid for the extra staff it takes to collect the money honestly.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Money and value are usually taxed when they change hands. Not sure why this is any different. Soak the rich.

 

[giusti825]

The estate tax is one of the most unethical and punishing taxes in the country. Extreme wealth concentration is a result of extreme work ethic. Tax inequality is a real issue in this country and ending the estate tax helps alleviate it.

Thats ridiculous. Work and wealth are not correlary. Some of the wealthiest people have never worked a day in their lives and there are many hard working poor people.

There aren't enough hours in a lifetime for a CEO to work 275 times harder than their average employee.

 

[Konquest]

I have to admit that I am more that a little emotionally swayed on this issue by the fact that the two families in discussion here are actively and publicly using said wealth to make things worse for the country that is rewarding them with this tax system...

 

[Quequeg]

I have to admit that I am more that a little emotionally swayed on this issue by the fact that the two families in discussion here are actively and publicly using said wealth to make things worse for the country that is rewarding them with this tax system...

Plus now they are allowed to buy politicians with unlimited contributions, thanks citizens united.

 

[ProBoxingInsidr]

so ts asked if it is morally defensible to let people keep more of the money they made?

 

[Konquest]

Thats ridiculous. Work and wealth are not correlary. Some of the wealthiest people have never worked a day in their lives and there are many hard working poor people.

There aren't enough hours in a lifetime for a CEO to work 275 times harder than their average employee.

I think he was being facetious, but you never know these days...

And I'd rephrase that to say that MOST of the wealthiest people in the world have never worked a day in their lives. The work ethic, sacrifice, and success was their grandparents, hence this whole discussion.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think he was being facetious, but you never know these days...

And I'd rephrase that to say that MOST of the wealthiest people in the world have never worked a day in their lives. The work ethic, sacrifice, and success was their grandparents, hence this whole discussion.

And to be fair there are many self made million and billionaires. If they are self made however then the estate tax isn't a huge issue for them since they could enjoy the wealth they generated within their life before its taxed. And even after its taxed its not like nothing gets left over, their heirs will still have a nice chunk of change under most estate tax proposals in the US.

 

[Konquest]

Plus now they are allowed to buy politicians with unlimited contributions, thanks citizens united.

Did you ever see the "platform" from when Charles Koch flirted with a presidential run in the 1980's? It's like "Hunger Games" -level dystopian fiction. These dudes don't shell out close to $1B in political campaigns in every election and not expect a return on investment. Shit is frightening...

 

[nostradumbass]

That money was already taxed when it was earned and I just can't get behind the argument of just not liking that someone built a large company. Estate tax seems more punitive than functional for people that did nothing wrong. Being able to give to your family is one of the biggest motivators to go out and make money.

 

[ToxicShocker]

In the FY 2018 budget there was a repeal of the estate tax, essentially giving the two richest families in the country a $92 Billion tax break.

The estate tax only applies to the top two tenths of the top 1% of the country. Is this a morally defensible move in a period where cuts are being made to medicare and social security?


I kinda feel like the estate tax is one of the most important taxes in the country. Its like a patch being released to fix a broken character in a game. It fixes a glitch of extreme wealth concentration to avoid a capitalist form of royal-like dynasties.

How do you guys feel about the estate tax in general? Do you believe a $92 Billion dollar tax break should be given to 6 people so they can pass fortunes on in perpetuity?

If the two families are worth 92 billion, when they die their estate taxes wont be 92 billion dollars.

 

[giusti825]

so ts asked if it is morally defensible to let people keep more of the money they made?

Unless they're buried with it, they cant keep it anyway.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That money was already taxed when it was earned and I just can't get behind the argument of just not liking that someone built a large company. Estate tax seems more punitive than functional for people that did nothing wrong. Being able to give to your family is one of the biggest motivators to go out and make money.

That's not entirely true, in most cases large estates are built largely on unrealized capital gains which are not taxed and in fact the estate tax is one of the few ways to tax this wealth.

What you're talking about applies more to landed estates since the owner presumably pays property taxes throughout his life before paying the estate tax but unrealized capital gains are more commonly the backbone of large estates.

 

[giusti825]

If the two families are worth 92 billion, when they die their estate taxes wont be 92 billion dollars.

The waltons and the koch bothers are worth hundreds of billions collectively.

The 92 billion is the actual number they save just from the repeal of the tax, not their net worth.

 

[HatchetHarry]

Work and wealth are not correlary.

Don’t be so dense

 

[Limbo Pete]

Thats ridiculous. Work and wealth are not correlary. Some of the wealthiest people have never worked a day in their lives and there are many hard working poor people.

There aren't enough hours in a lifetime for a CEO to work 275 times harder than their average employee.

You're talking to a guy that, iirc, has bragged on here about living for free in his parents beach house until his late 20s.

 

[hillelslovak87]

$92 billion one time on a budget of like 4 trillion just to attack people who have more than you seems petty to me.

Make an argument for the estate tax hat isn’t vaginal bleeding and jealousy


They have more than me take to away

"I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable, but the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property, only taking care to let their subdivisions go hand in hand with the natural affections of the human mind. The descent of property of every kind therefore to all the children, or to all the brothers and sisters, or other relations in equal degree, is a politic measure and a practicable one. Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise." Thomas Jefferson

 

[cincymma79]

I think he was being facetious, but you never know these days...

And I'd rephrase that to say that MOST of the wealthiest people in the world have never worked a day in their lives. The work ethic, sacrifice, and success was their grandparents, hence this whole discussion.

Back that up with any statistics or just your anal cavity?

 

[giusti825]

That money was already taxed when it was earned and I just can't get behind the argument of just not liking that someone built a large company. Estate tax seems more punitive than functional for people that did nothing wrong. Being able to give to your family is one of the biggest motivators to go out and make money.

In the current corporatist tax structure, this wealth is not being taxed appropriately.

The corporate tax rate was also cut by 40% in the FY 2018 budget.

Amazon would have owed $1.3 Billion in taxes before before the new budget. Instead, they will receieve a $143 Million rebate from the tax payers. It also should ge kept in mind that we subsidize their labor costs through public assistance public programs because they often pay lower than a livable wage even to full-time employees.