End of Castro Dynasty in Cuba as Raul Steps Down

[Trotsky]

Do you believe communism and/or socialism are better economic systems than capitalism? Or do you think a socio-capitalistic society works best?

Haha, this is a very complex and layered question, obviously. And the term "better" depends on what country (powerful or powerless) and what citizen (powerful or powerless) whose perspective you are depending on. I'll try to be very brief while at least somewhat answering your question.

Communism as an artifact of the 21st century, i.e. Leninism in Russia/Cuba and Maoism in China? Absolutely not. I think that important lessons have been learned from Russia, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos (I'm not sure that anything meaningful was discovered under Maoism), and many of those lessons have been largely integrated into social democracies in North America and Western Europe. But those particular systems do not present in themselves a "better economic system" per se.

Ultimately, revolutionary socialism/communism is not viable in terms of expectations of law term communist development in periphery economies like Russia (which wasn't even semi-developed at the time) or Cuba. It's only prospect of developmental success depends on it being carried out in a major economic epicenter (formerly Germany, now the US). Because private capital has so deeply penetrated political institutions in modern times, I do not think that precondition can be met.

As far as the abolition of capitalism toward socialization, it again is relative and to what you require in the transition. Do I ever think market logic will be abolished, like Pol Pot insisted upon? Of course not. However, that was never a realistic expectation of Marxist theory. I do think that collectivization and de-commodification can (and, if the human race is to survive, will) be arrived upon through democracy in the political and economic spheres of capitalist society and ultimately arrive upon a certain sort of hazily-defined socialism or communism.

EDIT: But, to be clear, I think that Leninsim and even flawed socialist/state capitalist developments in the third world have been better for those countries than the capitalist alternative of being leeched by their economic betters.

 

[Fawlty]

I'm hopeful that without Venezuela to turn to, things will improve. What I really don't want to see is a challenge to power in Cuba that is (understandably) anti-American, because we'll fuck them all the way if they don't get friendly to our corporations.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

US treating Cuba like pariahs keeps it a dirt cheap travel destination for the rest of the world - keep it going USA

 

[Trotsky]

I'm hopeful that without Venezuela to turn to, things will improve. What I really don't want to see is a challenge to power in Cuba that is (understandably) anti-American, because we'll fuck them all the way if they don't get friendly to our corporations.

There won't be any isolationist movement.

Also, your apparent hope that they "get friendly to our corporations" is completely fucked, as is your expectation that our artificially created economic crisis in Venezuela will push them into our economic sphere of influence.

 

[Seaside]

This won't change anything, as Raul (and late Fidel) already liberalized the economy and did everything they could possibly be expected to do to invite normalization of US relations. And they were successful, until we elected a moron.

Also, there was never the expectation of a hereditary monarchy, as Fidel explicitly limited the influence of his children, but Raul was a leading figure in the revolution and provisional government.



See above. If this improves US relations, it will be purely because the US hasn't had rational opposition to the country in years and was just using the Castros as a bogeyman. I do not expect any meaningful economic reforms to what is already one of the most stable Latin American countries, and happiest Caribbean island.

You guys will soon have regime change in venezuela and Cuba!!! Which means the entire western hemisphere will soon be banana republics to American interest, irrelevant 3rd world holes, or right wing militant governments!!

Winning for US policy

 

[Seaside]

There won't be any isolationist movement.

Also, your apparent hope that they "get friendly to our corporations" is completely fucked, as is your expectation that our artificially created economic crisis in Venezuela will push them into our economic sphere of influence.

With as bad as venezuela is now. People will turn time US I bet once that garbage Maduro is gone. People need food. I bet next guy elected is pro US. Just wait and see

 

[JamesRussler]

I always thought the commie thing was a joke. Are you full blown Bolshevik?

That picture in his av is none other than Thomas Stankara, the black Che Guevara, a man who personally liberated thousands of Capitalists from their Earthly prisons. His home country of Burka Fasho went on to become a model Socialist Utopia. It is widely rumored to be the IRL location of Wakanda.

Only a true believer would view Thomas Sankara as a model of success. Trotsky is fo real.

 

[Trotsky]

You guys will soon have regime change in venezuela and Cuba!!! Which means the entire western hemisphere will soon be banana republics to American interest, irrelevant 3rd world holes, or right wing militant governments!!

Winning for US policy

I have a hard time telling whether you're a troll or not, but yeah, this about describes the prospects of the region.

With as bad as venezuela is now. People will turn time US I bet once that garbage Maduro is gone. People need food. I bet next guy elected is pro US. Just wait and see

At this point, Venezuela has three hopes:
(1) China comes to their aid, which = shitty deal in the long-run
(2) They elect a right-winger who allies with US/oligarchic regional interests, which = REALLY shitty deal in long-run
(3) Maduro survives Trump's term, the US elects Bernie Sanders, and then the sanctions are revoked upon negotiation of some liberalization of the Maduro government, which = good for everyone but US corporations and Latin American oligarchs.

 

[Trotsky]

That picture in his av is none other than Thomas Stankara, the black Che Guevara, a man who personally liberated thousands of Capitalists from their Earthly prisons. His home country of Burka Fasho went on to become a model Socialist Utopia. It is widely rumored to be the IRL location of Wakanda.

Only a true believer would view Thomas Sankara as a model of success. Trotsky is fo real.

It's Burkina Faso, you rube. And, under Sankara, it had one of the greatest economic and social spikes in modern history and in the history of Africa. Hunger, illiteracy, and poverty all dropped dramatically and it became the first Sub-Saharran African country to become agriculturally self-sufficient in the 20th century.

That was, of course, until a French-supported colleague butchered him and buried him in an unmarked graves so that France could continue collecting odious debts and exploiting their people, resources, and labor.

 

[HomerThompson]

That picture in his av is none other than Thomas Stankara, the black Che Guevara, a man who personally liberated thousands of Capitalists from their Earthly prisons. His home country of Burka Fasho went on to become a model Socialist Utopia. It is widely rumored to be the IRL location of Wakanda.

Only a true believer would view Thomas Sankara as a model of success. Trotsky is fo real.

You guys are so boring with that shit. Address his actual arguments, and statements instead of constantly attacking the messenger. It's intellectually lazy, and weak.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

Politically, the Cuban people are probably the single most inspiring people on earth. Culturally, their music is pretty great too.

Culturally, Cuban parts of Miami sucks ass.

 

[Trotsky]

You guys are so boring with that shit. Address his actual arguments, and statements instead of constantly attacking the messenger. It's intellectually lazy, and weak.

That's actually not a bad ad hom by @JamesRussler as we are discussing my communist-related philosophies and I do greatly admire Thomas Sankara.

Whereas, usually, I would be responding to a completely unrelated topic and stating a reasonable opinion that one of these dummies can't address so they just pull the, "lol username" card to tuck tail.

EDIT: Also, #VivaCastro #VivaJulio26th #CubaLibre

 

[JamesRussler]

You guys are so boring with that shit. Address his actual arguments, and statements instead of constantly attacking the messenger. It's intellectually lazy, and weak.

C’mon dude, lighten up. I didn’t mean it like that.

 

[HomerThompson]

C’mon dude, lighten up. I didn’t mean it like that.

Fine.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

It's Burkina Faso, you rube. And, under Sankara, it had one of the greatest economic and social spikes in modern history and in the history of Africa. Hunger, illiteracy, and poverty all dropped dramatically and it became the first Sub-Saharran African country to become agriculturally self-sufficient in the 20th century.

That was, of course, until a French-supported colleague butchered him and buried him in an unmarked graves so that France could continue collecting odious debts and exploiting their people, resources, and labor.

Not to mention ridiculous trials of perceived opponents, union busting and elimination of free press -- oh, and torture -- wouldn't be a maxist revolution without the torture

 

[JamesRussler]

It's Burkina Faso, you rube. And, under Sankara, it had one of the greatest economic and social spikes in modern history and in the history of Africa. Hunger, illiteracy, and poverty all dropped dramatically and it became the first Sub-Saharran African country to become agriculturally self-sufficient in the 20th century.

That was, of course, until a French-supported colleague butchered him and buried him in an unmarked graves so that France could continue collecting odious debts and exploiting their people, resources, and labor.

Whoops my bad. Damn autocorrect.
So do you attribute Burkina Faso’s success to Sankara, or to his political philosophy? I do not dispute that Burkina Faso was a shining example of what Socialist-ish governments are capable of achieving.

 

[Fawlty]

There won't be any isolationist movement.

Also, your apparent hope that they "get friendly to our corporations" is completely fucked, as is your expectation that our artificially created economic crisis in Venezuela will push them into our economic sphere of influence.

Easy big fella, I'm just saying I hope they actually want what is coming to them. My unconditional solidarity and respect for their self-determination would make a worthless lube.

 

[Trotsky]

Not to mention ridiculous trials of perceived opponents, union busting and elimination of free press -- oh, and torture -- wouldn't be a maxist revolution without the torture

LOL, grade A slander and character assassination here. Truly undercutting your legitimacy as a poster.

The only documented cases of torture, the only torture that has been proven, occurred after the capitalist overthrow of Sankara by Compaore. Also, there was no "union busting." So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Lastly, Sankara wasn't really a Marxist, so much as a revolutionary who vaguely cited Marx among many influences, but I know details like that are somewhat pedantic to persons like you.

 

[Trotsky]

So do you attribute Burkina Faso’s success to Sankara, or to his political philosophy?

Yes. I'm always hesitant to "attribute" huge developments like that to individuals specifically, as that is very much contrary to my philosophy and the philosophy of Sankara himself. However, his enthusiasm, commitment, and ability to connect with people was undoubtedly very beneficial to his cause and to greasing the wheels of his revolution. Would it have nevertheless achieved the same without him? Who knows.

But, to cover all bases and touch on all spurious variables, pseudo-nationalist rhetoric always has a mobilizing effect, as does the stimulation of female labor and female political participation, which was perhaps his most trailblazing policy in the region.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

LOL, grade A slander and character assassination here. Truly undercutting your legitimacy as a poster.

The only documented cases of torture, the only torture that has been proven, occurred after the capitalist overthrow of Sankara by Compaore. Also, there was no "union busting." So I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Lastly, Sankara wasn't really a Marxist, so much as a revolutionary who vaguely cited Marx among many influences, but I know details like that are somewhat pedantic to persons like you.

Aww, muffin -- questioning dear leader gets your brown shirt and panties in a bunch??

So you're disputing oxfam reporting:

The British development organisation Oxfam recorded the arrest and torture of trade union leaders in 1987.[29] In 1984, seven individuals associated with the previous régime were accused of treason and executed after a summary trial. A teachers' strike the same year resulted in the dismissal of 2,500 teachers; thereafter, non-governmental organisations and unions were harassed or placed under the authority of the Committees for the Defence of the Revolution, branches of which were established in each workplace and which functioned as "organs of political and social control."[30]

Popular Revolutionary Tribunals, set up by the government throughout the country, placed defendants on trial for corruption, tax evasion or "counter-revolutionary" activity. Procedures in these trials, especially legal protections for the accused, did not conform to international standards. According to Christian Morrisson and Jean-Paul Azam of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the "climate of urgency and drastic action, in which many punishments were carried out immediately against those who had the misfortune to be found guilty of unrevolutionary behaviour, bore some resemblance to what occurred in the worst days of the French Revolution, during the Reign of Terror. Although few people were killed, violence was widespread."