Elbow Guard - Golden Age Muay Thai

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by AndyMaBobs, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Kickzilla

    Kickzilla Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    75
    Location:
    Canada
    Kicking on the same side a straight punch is coming from is an obviously effective counter, just because kicks, and long knees are in play doesn't mean the punching element of muay thai is obsolete and should never be used. There's a counter to nearly every strike including the teep, getting dumped on your ass is just as unpleasant, does that stop you from attempting to establish the teep? Or do you instead use context..when the opponent is advancing for instance you have a great opportunity to teep safely (as one example). Similarly the long guard is a tried and true staple in muay thai and makes one vulnerable to kicks on the lead hand side as well yet it's been consistently shown to be used effectively by good fighters especially Thais.

    The beauty of jabs is there are multiple ways to throw them, multiple reasons to use them, there's no reason you have to be throwing weighted front foot heavy jabs all the time to make you vulnerable to leg kicks. Are leg kicks an obvious counter to someone coming in front foot heavy with punches? Obviously but again it goes back to my first point.

    You can also target any area you want with a jab if you're doing so correctly. A well executed, properly weighted jab can also make your opponent gun shy (both with kicks and punches). I'm not advocating for being a dumbass and blindly wading in while your opponent happens to have an obvious kicking advantage over you, but to use that as a reason to neglect the jab and in my opinion hurt the setup of your punches, kicks, knees, elbows, and make your distance management less efficient seems shortsighted to me.

    Lastly there are different stylists within muay thai and kickboxing, some nak muay are more punch oriented, or kick oriented, others more knee/clinch oriented as was the original context of this thread. We can disagree on the importance but those are my reasons with all due respect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
    shincheckin likes this.
  2. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,735
    Likes Received:
    1,980
    i use the jab from the hip boxer style in sparring here and there. Tried it in a fight, it didnt work out too well when I did it, not that it couldnt, but just in that instance it didnt work for me.
     
  3. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    I like this conversation, so I'm going to point out the things I don't agree with, to keep it going. To be clear. I am talking strictly about MT, with the rules and scoring you see mostly in Thailand. (order is completely random).

    I fully disagree with that. I cannot think any purpose of jabbing elsewhere than the head. You wont get any points, you put yourself in a very bad position, you wont hurt your opponent, you wont stop him with it if you target the body.

    I believe that the teep does a better job than the jab, and can be as versatile. The main purpose of the jab in MT, is to keep your opponents guard high to set up the kicks. It's not for stopping him (teeps and straight knees do a better work). It's not for scoring points. It's not for distance checking. (lows and teeps do that). It's not for doing damage.
    I also believe a weighted back leg jab is mostly useless in MT, and the occasion to use it very rare.

    So I cannot see multiple ways to throw them, and I cannot see multiple reasons. If it was boxing, I would fully agree (from the little experience I have in it)

    You are not been fair here man. I never said it should never be used. I responded to the : Jab as frequently as you teep.

    I am not against the use of the jab... I am against the use of the jab the way and the frequency they use it in Boxing. I believe the teep is a better weapon and covers most of the uses. Of course there are situation that are more suited for the jab, but it shouldn't be a "main" weapon.




    That's my opinion on how MT should be taught, specially to beginners. From there, and with enough experience, some individuals can make everything work. But a puncher based Nak Muay is an exception, not the rule.


    Common man... This is sherdg. There is no respect here. Am right and you're wrong and that's it.
     
  4. eternaldarkness

    eternaldarkness Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 26, 2014
    Messages:
    3,020
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    Location:
    Wyrdstone 101
    much as a hate to admit it (i'm a boxer first and foremost) but i think your right. as soon as i'm sparing someone that can kick i tend to abandon the jab. it just gets your lead leg kicked off. i much prefer to move into middle distance and try to keep their feet on the ground by throwing crosses and hooks. then they usually just try to clinch and knee. it is actually pretty difficult to stay in that comfortable middle ground and unload punches. (unless your fighting mma, then when they go for the clinch you pick 'em up and drop 'em on der 'ed)
     
  5. Ilk

    Ilk Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2016
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    408
    Would this guard work for boxing. I remember I once watched some pretty impressive female boxer using this type of a guard (I think she is Scandinavian but could not remember the name). Anyway she was masking cross and right hook pretty well using this kind of a guard.

    I loved the video posted. It was very well explaining how she can mix it up with a boxing flow.
     
  6. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    I should also point out that the pendulum kick a-la Sagat works as a fine replacement for the jab as well.

    Don't get me wrong, I've found a way to make jabs work, and the best strikers will jab in combination with a teep - like Giorgio Petrosyan, Samart Payakaroon, Buakaw, etc. but I don't think JUST jabbing works as well in muay thai
     
  7. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    There are similar guards used in boxing, Archie Moore had something similar - but they're not exactly the same
     
  8. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.


    At the moment I'm prioritising training this as it's a more simply guard to get to grips with, my punch defence has always been something I could improve on, I always relied on just parrying and returning which I'm still using but now I'm mixing it with this. From there I'm going to work on the elbow guard some more!

    The good thing about this is you combine the two and the elbow guard checks punches quite well, and the armadillo guard works well when you're not as sure what they're going for, if you've got an opponent who uppercuts a lot, then this guard works quite well as it leaves you in the perfect position to snap down and catch that uppercut with one arm, and allows you to easily reach over with the other arm and throw a big power knee.

    I think if you have one evasive move that you're very good at, a good blocking move and a good parry, then you're pretty sound defensively. I've got the parries and evasion down, now I just gotta work on this and I'll be ready for more fights.
     
    William Huggins likes this.
  9. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    For the Armadillo guard:

    I really don't like that guard. You cannot retaliate. Your only option is to block. You can't punch back, you can't elbow, you can't clinch. And when you want to go back to another guard, you open yourself and you loose time. Plus you can't see shit...
     
  10. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Messages:
    12,859
    Likes Received:
    13,328
    Location:
    Let me bang mang
    You punch?
     
  11. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    Are you crazy? I said "You". Not talking about me. I'm talking about guys who may want to punch...
     
    AndyMaBobs likes this.
  12. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    None of that is true. I've been using it and I can see fine out of it, you can get very easy clinch entries out of it and as for punching back, you can, especially in a boxing context but because I'm talking to Azam and boxing is banned I will re-iterate what I said before in the knees :p

    You can elbow really easily out of it too, up elbows are very easy, all you have to do is slightly lower the position of your elbow back down to normal and you have your up elbow, which is easily do able as their punch retracts - also your power hand being on top allows you to pull it down to generate momentum for a kick or a knee easily.

    how much time have you spent using it?


    lol jk we're showing punching:

     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    Fire of Youth likes this.
  13. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    How can you punch out of it? Or elbow, or entry the clinch? You have to reset the guard to a "normal" guard, then do those things... You waste time. If you take the tight high guard for example... You don't have to reset it to enter the clinch. You just extend you hands. You can elbow from a high guard... How can you throw a punch from the armadillo guard? Only option is a backfist or something... I don't understand.
     
  14. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    I edited my comment, but I think I didn't do it soon enough so may be worth a re read if you haven't seen

    You just shift your weight backwards the same way you would before you throw a hook. You don't even have to reset to a normal guard, you can just shift to dracula guard to land a knee. Keep in mind you're not supposed to spend an entire fight with your guard like that. Entry to the clinch is especially easy because it brings your power hand to an angle where you can easily grab your opponents opposite shoulder.
     
  15. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    Got to go now, but i will get back to you. I will even spend some time at the gym to see what you mean.
     
  16. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Keep in mind you have to drill this and the right responses, you can't just bust it out sparring immediately and have success. I may actually post a video demonstrating it with someone from my gym later in the week to show what I mean. It's a proven technique haha


    EDIT:

    Also forgot to mention it can be applied with one arm and a frame, it's not a one size fits all always doing full cross guard deal



    https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2014/6/...s-armed-guard-the-lock-part-2-boxing-analysis < more stuff on it

    The idea is you use a long guard with the full armadillo guard
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  17. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    @AndyMaBobs


    I gave it a go at the gym for 5min, so I'm pretty confident I mastered the technique... No seriously, I spend some time with it, and I had the same feeling I had the first time I tried it: It's really not for me, and I still believe it has a lot's of flaws, making your life more difficult than needed. I use the long/half long guard a lot. I don't use the dracula/frame guard at all.

    -I can feel the AG flow from the dracula guard, but not so much from the long guard. Obviously it's one of those thinks that the more you train, the smoother the transition will be, but I really don't feel it.

    -As a defensive mechanism, it's very effective for its purpose. It's slower than a high tight guard, but it does the job very well. But I don't like the feeling to "open" it up, when you are done with it. I was always afraid that my opponent will time it, to blast thru it. That he will "hold" his pressure, just to see me relax and open. Didn't happen, but didn't like that feeling.

    -You can't see shit...

    -I feel vulnerable for roundhouses to the ribs. The distance you use it is not the right one for your opponent to midkick you, but still, i felt vulnerable there if needed. That I would be too slow to transition to a more efficient guard for the kicks.

    -You can't see shit...

    -Elbows from the AG. I was surprised that it was a lot easier to throw them than what I expected/remembered. Had no problem throwing the horizontal ones from it.

    -Punches from AG. I had a friend throwing them for me, because common... I got a reputation. Jab: Couldn't make it work. Had to completely reset to another guard, to be able to throw the front hand. Rear punch: To make them work, I had to turn my body sideways, like if I loaded the punch, to be able to throw it. It's doable, but I don't like that I need to sacrifice my posture for it. And it's still slower than from other guards with a huge tell...

    -Clinch from AG. Not as hard as I thought. Just needed some time to adjust. At first it's kind awkward, but after a while it was ok. I still prefer to enter from more classic guards, but I'm willing to admit that with training, it might work good.

    -You can't see shit...

    -Knees and kicks from AG. I hated it. My balance was way off if I kept the guard, and the movement too large, too awkward when I open up. Again, with training it would probably get better, but I believe it would never feel the same as from a more "classic" stance/guard.

    -You can't see shit...

    I wont comment on the article you linked, because it's about madafakin box. 97% of the stuff they do, cannot be applied to MT.
    If you can find a Nak Muay using it during a fight, would love to see it.

    PS: You can't see shit...
     
  18. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Kaensak is a good example of a fighter that did use it, so does Sylvie - it may be harder to find good examples though because it seems that it is an old school technique even in Muay Thai.

    As for knees and kicks, that's probably where you're not used to it. I don't have a lot of trouble with it.

    As for you saying you can't see shit, dude are you covering your eyes or something? What are you doing dude? One covers your jaw, the other covers your brow with the palm facing outwards, it shouldn't impede your vision at all.

    You don't really jab out of the guard though, you turn your shoulders and then throw.

    So far what I use it for is a second line of defence, I like to parry and return fire on the outside, but when I'm making my way forwards and am looking to establish a clinch I find it works very well
     
  19. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Gazing into the abyss
    I made it work for the rear hand, but not for the jab. But even for the rear hand, I found it slow, with a huge tell, and I had to compromise my posture for it.

    The hand over the jaw makes me loose sight of the opponents legs and hips. The rear hand makes me loose sight from the sides, the bicep covering the view from one side, and the glove from the other side... It was like having one of those headgear with the nosebar...
     
  20. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes Received:
    2,125
    Location:
    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.

    What Archie Moore would do was hide his punching hand behind the opposite. I find that works for me you obstruct the view, if that makes sense - I don't think you're really meant to jab out of this guard though, it's more you jab actively and if they fire back you go to the guard.

    When you did it, did you have your lead hand on your shoulder, or did you have it around your underarm? If your hands touching your shoulder that might be why your vision is obscured.


    I find that I often do it reactively as well. I find that I'm always able to see an uppercut coming to slap down on it.
     

Share This Page