Duterte's War on Drugs

[Bald1]

Perhaps one of use can post statistics showing how many deaths occurred due to alcohol withdrawal and how many of them occurred due to heroin overdose? Pointing out that a person CAN die from alcohol withdrawal doesn't mean much when people are not dying of alcohol withdrawal as much as people dying from heroin overdose.



Well, I'm not talking about tobacco which I've never heard anyone dying over except for certain cancers linked to cigarette smoking. But I've yet to hear of a cigarette overdose or someone pulling a home invasion to come up with the money to get a pack of smokes.

And I listed tangibles as opposed to what ifs or possibles. We'll get better traction that way imo.



I beg to differ. You are looking at it from a "self bodily harm" pov. I was looking at it from a "the harm addicts do to others to get what they want" pov since the beginning of this conversation. Even mad man Duterte never cited the self harm argument. His thing seems to be the harm that drug addiction does to people other than addicts and society as a whole. At least that's what he claims publicly.



I'm inclined to agree with you but I would not be surprised if I were to look into it and find out that junkies looking for a fix also accounted for those numbers. That number maybe too big for one city or even one state, but for the entire U.S. it's totally possible. And let's not forget that illegal substances are also included in those numbers so we don't know how many of those 10,000 or so DUI deaths were cases where the guilty parties were under the influence of something other than alcohol. But it's like you said, the INTENT is what separates the two. A DUI death is considered manslaughter while a death during a robbery or home invasion goes to as murder. But if it were up to me people who drive while under the influence would receive the severest possible punishment. I think those people are inconsiderate scum.







Well for the record I VEHEMENTLY disagree with Duterte's program with the lack of due process especially since some people are supposedly dealt with based on suspicion alone which is really fucked up. But I'll say again that no one on earth (including Portugal which I'll get to below) has come up with a viable and "serious crack down" solution to drug addiction and the problems that drug addiction imposes on a given society. It's a shame that some people become so desperate that a solution such as Duterte's sounds almost practical.



I'll put it to you in a way that you should understand. Let's say my professional mma record is 20-0 with only 4 KOs. That's a boring ass resume, no? Now let's say that instead of only 4 KOs the rules were changed to where if I knock a fighter down more than once over the course of a fight then that is recorded as a knockout! And I managed to knock at least 17 out of 20 opponents down two or more times during the fights so now my resume looks lovely; 20-0 17 wins by KO. See the what I did there?

What I am saying is that Portugal has decriminalized recreational drug use and reduced certain drug possession crimes to "minor offenses". OF COURSE this will make the numbers look differently than what they did before Portugal started this thing of theirs. But my MAIN POINT is that Portugal is essentially doing something which I believe Duterte refuses to do which is essentially placating drug addicts instead of trying to clean up their country and completely rid themselves of illegal drug use. Big difference between the two approaches so really shouldn't eve be compared if you ask me. That too helps change their statistics. It's better than nothing sure but as long as you still have broke and jobless drug addicts needing money to pay for drugs, certain amounts of drug possession as still being criminal offenses and people competing for drug business, you will still have ALL of the problems that come with these no matter what "official numbers" say. The Government of the United States has "official numbers" concerning the sexual assault rate in this country. Do you think even for a second that those numbers REALLY reflect the total number of sexual assaults that take place here? Every country fudges their numbers to look better to the rest of the world.

You didn't read up on Portugal, did you. It's ok, you can admitt it.

 

[ShinkanPo]

@ShinkanPo

It looks like Trudeau's smug, self-righteousness, rampant-moralizing is working well for him :

Justin Trudeau slammed by Philippines leader for asking about human rights

That only means Trudeue is doing the right thing probably the only good thing he has done so far in the context of the ASEAN summit aside from buying Junk Food. Trudeau one day will be remembered as that Canadian Prime Minister who challenge Duterte and fought for human rights.

Even Prime Minister Arden of New Zealand showed concern about the Human Rights situation in the Philippines.

Trudeau and Arden might be both politicians but their countries follows certain principles one of which is universal respect for human rights. These Western countries stick to their principles that is why they have a strong foundation of democratic govt. no matter what Party is in power. Unfortunately majority of the Philippines politicians only caters for their own selfish interests and couldn’t care less about basic human rights and respect to its citizens. I might also add that the Philippines voters are prone to electing demagogues and easily sway by shallow promises. The present govt is so inept and and the leader is so erratic and full of bravado. It pains me to see the country going backwards and divided.

 

[AshiharaFan]

You didn't read up on Portugal, did you. It's ok, you can admitt it.

I did. I just did so without blinders on. You should try it.

 

[superpunch]

I'm over here right now. I have been for the last 3 days. If I spent the same amount of time cruising the Las Vegas strip, I would have seen more criminal activity. Everything is way overblown by the media.

I visited Manhattan. Therefor inner Detroit is safe.

 

[superpunch]

This X1,000.

We should also be honest about drugs. The reason people do them is they feel amazing (I don't use myself) and we see drug abuse around the globe and of all income levels (I know lower income is more likely to use). It's a human problem and people who use are not inherent scum. It's just how our brains work and some people take the risks.

I don't think that's why people develop drug addictions.

 

[kpt018]

I don't think that's why people develop drug addictions.

I didn't go into any detail, so not sure what there is to even disagree with. Just pointing out it's a human problem, not class, religion, race, etc..

 

[Bald1]

I did. I just did so without blinders on. You should try it.

Use is down.
Number of addicts is down.
Crime is down.
ODs are down.

But yeah, they're just placating users. Yup, that's all, nothing to see here.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Use is down.
Number of addicts is down.
Crime is down.
ODs are down.

But yeah, they're just placating users. Yup, that's all, nothing to see here.

Number of addicts still more than in other countries such as KSA.
Crime is still more than other countries. KSA being one of them.
Still more ODs than other countries including KSA and even The Czech Republic.

In 2015 Portugal (with their drug decriminalization and addictions as medical issue policies) had 40 ODs which is only 4 less than Czech Republic WITHOUT those same laws.

In 2015 HIV diagnoses attributed to injecting in Czech Republic is only 4. But in that same year the number of HIV diagnoses attributed to injecting in Portugal is 44 even with their policies you seem to think are the model for drug laws.

In 2015 the number of drug offenses in Czech Republic was 5,549. In That same year the muber of drug offenses in Portugal (with their newly enlightening drug DECRIMINALIZATION laws) was 16,102.

Presently HIGH RISK opioid users in Czech Republic is 12,700 but the number of HIGH RISK opioid users in your beloved Portugal is 31,858.

Your precious Portugal's statistics don't look so amazing compared to another European country even WITHOUT Portugal's model drug laws. And these same statistics are even worse if we compare them between Portugal and Saudi Arabia.

But yeah, they're the globe's go to model for drug laws. Yup, you're right. Nothing to see here.

 

[no fat chicks]

The solution is to legalise it. Let people do what they want. Their drug use will harm u a lot less than if we're wasting resources locking up or shooting them.

 

[P4p Islam]

And here is where it starts to get heated for some people. I think you know just as well as everyone else here that drug users DO harm others. Many of them rob and kill for it. Some sell their own children or allow others to have their way with them (their kids) for their own drug gain. There are people who abandon their children because their fix was more important to them and kids have gotten hold of mommy and/or daddy's drugs and suffered very bad consequences.

If we say that drug use does not harm anyone in any country then we would not be very honest with ourselves.

I smoked a fat blunt today. Are you ok?

 

[AshiharaFan]

DUI's weren't even the subject. If you go back the subject was alcohols involvement in violent crime. This was a little deferment by yourself. OK I completely concede yes drugs are involved in DUI's. It's not really a point either of us were raising.

You're right. IIRC I'm the one who brought up DUI's when you first mentioned the number of deaths in America that are alcohol related. I brought up the DUI's (and the fact that illegal substances were factored into them) to make it clear that these alcohol related deaths weren't all violent, kicking down your door, robbing you at the ATM machine, shooting and stabbing people kinds of deaths like what we have with illegal substance addicts. Perhaps I could have done a better job at making it clear at that time. I can accept the blame for that particular misunderstanding.

You talk about alcoholics not breaking in to houses to steal alcohol but ignore our point about alcohol turning a % of normal people into violent dickheads.

No, I don't ignore it at all. People becoming violent dickheads due to alcohol is part of the reason that we have those 10,000 or so alcohol related deaths in America. What I was trying to say is that the alcohol related deaths should really be broken into two sections; deaths by dickhead violence and accidental deaths due to DUI. I also want to say that some people also become violent dickheads when they're high on certain drugs too. I've seen first hand the extent of violent damage a crackhead (while high on crack) can do.

One of the differences (in my opinion) between alcohol related violence and deaths and drug related violence and death is the huge difference in INTENT. An alcoholic may cause an accidental death if he had one too many beers to drink and not be cognizant enough to realize what he's doing. But a drug addict has a very clear intent to hurt you or kill you if need be in order to take what he can from you so he can get what he wants. The intent is different and it is crystal clear. I, as a non drinker, can avoid engaging in violence with a drunk dude, but it's not so easy to do the same with someone who is super hyped up on drugs or super crazy because he needs drugs. They're not as slow, clumsy and avoidable as someone who is pissy drunk.

Actually IIRC you said it should be illegal...

I don't recall saying that it should be illegal. I believe I said that DUI laws should be much, much harsher that what they are in order to alleviate or at least minimize the number of DUI deaths we experience each year.

Around 3 million people die globally each year from alcohol consumption.

Okay.

Around 250,000-400,000 die from illegal drug use depending on what source you want to use.

In America over half of your overdoses are related to your opioid epidemic. Around 1/3 are legal drugs.

Illegal drugs isn't the issue when it comes to overdoses in America, your doctors handing out legal addictive drugs like candy is.

If I'm understanding you correctly it sounds as if you're saying that the widespread availability of illegal drugs is the cause of overdoses in America. If so I still disagree with this. I think the causes of overdoses in America are the effects the drugs have on the human body, the potency/strength of some of these drugs and the inability of some people to handle such potency; especially on a frequent basis. When have we ever heard of anyone overdosing on marijuana?

It's interesting you touch on drug dealer violence. It's certainly an issue. Mexico has averaged probably a bit over 10k murdered each year for over a decade.

Can you name another infinite resource where people kill each other in that kind of number?

No, I don't think that I can.

I know we kill each other for finite resources, diamonds, oil etc. Not infinite ones like drugs.

Unless we make them illegal and create a multi billion dollar black market. Like we did with drugs.

While I do see your point and do not disagree I think you are now mixing apples and oranges because we are talking two entirely different products and they each have their own set of circumstances affecting the lives of others. One such example is that no one is smoking, swallowing or injecting diamonds or oils into their bodies and getting high off of them and overdosing on them.

If you think that's placation...

Legalisation is another alternative.

The better alternative.

Hey man, I hear you. Please believe me when I tell you I do. But please understand that there are alternatives better than Legalization. The problem with these other alternatives is that the majority of people see those alternatives as stifling and overbearing and stepping on people's freedoms. So it boils down to from which perspective are you observing the proverbial "old woman, young woman" picture.

People don't really understand how many drugs there are. When I said I could list hundreds safer than alcohol I wasn't kidding.

Actually, I believe you.

Ever heard of Alexander Shulgin? He's known as the godfather of psychedelics. Basically he synthesized a whole bunch of different drugs just from the phenethylamine family in the 70's.

No, I've never heard of him.

Here's a book he wrote that lists 179 of them.
https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal.shtml

That's one drug family. It's not even a complete list of the drugs within that family.

Here's some designer drugs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designer_drugs

Note that if you click on any of the see also: list of example that the link will take you to a new list of drugs. Basically there's hundreds upon hundreds of psychoactive substances.

If I gain enough interest and have the time to spare I will look into these links. Thanks.

You really think our legislation on all these drugs is made on how much harm they do?

No, I don't think so. What I was trying to say was that if it were up to me the legislation on illegal drugs would have a whole lot to do with how much harm they do. People overdosing is one thing. Other people, including non drug users, being placed in harm's way because of these addicts and their activities is something altogether different.

Or is it possible that we made a decision back in the 1930's when tobacco was good for you that all drugs not from our culture are bad?

IDK. It's possible. But I don't know that for certain so I cannot answer it either way.

Here's a crazy idea. Do trials on hundreds of these drugs, and legalize a whole bunch of the ones you're extremely unlikely to overdose on or become addicted to along with the main stream illegal drugs and implement a pricing system based on harm.

Crazy idea huh? Cheap safe drugs, dangerous drugs are available but more expensive.

It'll crush the illegal black market because who wants to buy coke that's cut with who knows what from johnny the junkie? Fucker is going to shoot me one day. That dumb shit can't compete with mass uninterrupted production, still has johnny law to deal with, no customers and overpriced product.

With the illegal drug market no longer being a viable career option government can control the entire drug market. Especially if they do it without going the capitalism route.

This allows pooling of data and the ability to implement policies that can not only be accurately measured but also impact incredibly high percentages of the people we're actually trying to reach. I'm thinking in excess of 99% of all people will go the legal route.

This is amazing control. Once you have this you can try countless strategies.

You could implement a licensing system for hard drugs. Sure you can take heroin, crack but you need to see this drug councilor for a one hour session before you can get a license.

With apathy today and 50 other safe legal drugs available on the market who's bothering with this slight inconvenience other than addicts?

I think we're still in disagreement over this part of the discussion. For me, from the VERY BEGINNING, it has never been about the legalization and control of illegal drugs. My argument has been since the beginning the harm that drug addictions cause. I've said it before and I am going to say it again; regardless if a drug is legal or not, addiction is addiction, an addict is an addict and a broke and jobless addict is a broke and jobless addict who needs a fix ASAP!!

Even you yourself brought up alcohol and the violence and deaths related to alcohol and yet ALCOHOL IS 100% LEGAL!! Legal or not, an alcoholic is an alcoholic, a drunk dickhead is a drunk dickhead and DUI is DUI. To me, it's not about whether or not something is legal or the availability of it. It's the substances themselves, what these substances turn people into and how many innocent people are harmed or otherwise affected by the existence and use of these substances. I really don't know how much more clear I can be than that.

SA has harshly dealt with drug use of course they will make the numbers look differently than America do you think even for a second that those numbers REALLY reflect the total number of drug deaths that take place here? Every country fudges their numbers to look better to the rest of the world.

Yes, I firmly believe that EVERY COUNTRY fudges their numbers to look good to the rest of the world. But I also realize that KSA (due to their really harsh laws) has a much, much better handle on their drug and alcohol situation than America and even Portugal BY FAR!!

 

[AshiharaFan]

I smoked a fat blunt today. Are you ok?

I'm fine.

And for the record I see nothing wrong with Ganja. I do not put ganja in the same category as heroin, meth and fentanyl. This is what I meant about drug users, not weed smokers.

 

[AshiharaFan]

The solution is to legalise it. Let people do what they want. Their drug use will harm u a lot less than if we're wasting resources locking up or shooting them.

OR........

Stiffer laws and punishments can be enforced such as being done in many other countries around the world.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Not sure if this has already been brought up but what if you kill someone for some personal reason and use "he was a drug addict" as an excuse?

 

[no fat chicks]

OR........

Stiffer laws and punishments can be enforced such as being done in many other countries around the world.

Yeah no thanks. What countries with crazy drug laws should we model after.

 

[AFCrookie]

Dude's a lawyer, and a gangster. When he was the mayor of Davao, he made a dude eat a lit cigarette for violating a ban on public smoking. Out of his fucking mind, but effective.

 

[Undying Poster]

Number of addicts still more than in other countries such as KSA.
Crime is still more than other countries. KSA being one of them.
Still more ODs than other countries including KSA and even The Czech Republic.

In 2015 Portugal (with their drug decriminalization and addictions as medical issue policies) had 40 ODs which is only 4 less than Czech Republic WITHOUT those same laws.

In 2015 HIV diagnoses attributed to injecting in Czech Republic is only 4. But in that same year the number of HIV diagnoses attributed to injecting in Portugal is 44 even with their policies you seem to think are the model for drug laws.

In 2015 the number of drug offenses in Czech Republic was 5,549. In That same year the muber of drug offenses in Portugal (with their newly enlightening drug DECRIMINALIZATION laws) was 16,102.

Presently HIGH RISK opioid users in Czech Republic is 12,700 but the number of HIGH RISK opioid users in your beloved Portugal is 31,858.

Your precious Portugal's statistics don't look so amazing compared to another European country even WITHOUT Portugal's model drug laws. And these same statistics are even worse if we compare them between Portugal and Saudi Arabia.

But yeah, they're the globe's go to model for drug laws. Yup, you're right. Nothing to see here.

lol, are you using Saudi Arabia as a role model for...anything? Of course an authoritarian government with no respect for human rights, privacy, has religious police, in a deeply conservative society is going to have less drug users than a secular, liberal democracy that cares about outrageous things like human rights and privacy

 

[AshiharaFan]

lol, are you using Saudi Arabia as a role model for...anything? Of course an authoritarian government with no respect for human rights, privacy, has religious police, in a deeply conservative society is going to have less drug users than a secular, liberal democracy that cares about outrageous things like human rights and privacy

Yes I am using Saudi Arabia as a role model for drug laws and punishment because my point is that a government CAN implement laws and punishments IF IT WAS SO INCLINED!

 

[helltoupee]

The point I was trying to make is that sometimes people step into zones in the drug world with blinders on and totally unprepared for the life they will likely live once they become hooked on something other than weed, REGARDLESS if that drug is legal or not. Some of you guys keep bringing up the fact that heroin, meth and crack cocaine is illegal and is the reason why people rob, steal and kill to get the money they need to fund their addictions. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!! Addicts rob, steal and kill because the addiction to heroin, crack, meth, fentanyl, K-2 and most of those other hard drugs is much, much, MUCH stronger than addiction to cigarettes, alcohol and marijuana. I keep saying this and y'all keep overlooking this; there is a reason that alcoholics and nicotine fiends aren't robbing gas stations, sticking people up at the ATM or pulling home invasions to scrounge up something to pay for a bottle of E&J or a pack of smokes. That reason is because the PULL of that addiction just doesn't compare to the pull that those hard drugs have on people. This is the bottom line and it's as simple as that. You or no one else here can honestly deny this. I don't care if heroin is legal or illegal. The addiction to it is strong enough to make people get crazy to come up with a way to get their fix. The worst I've ever seen an alcoholic or nicotine fiend do is go around and bumming off of people until they can hustle up enough chump change to get something to tide them over.



That's great, now let me ask you, WHAT DO I POSSIBLY HAVE TO GAIN TO MAKE UP AND SHARE SUCH A "FAKE" STORY? By painting myself as the "intimidating hero, kicking everyone's ass and getting out clean" (as you put it) will everyone here start giving me money? Will I become the owner of Sherdog? Will everyone here start paying my bills for me? Or maybe I will stop getting bills entirely? Will a million dollars magically show up in my bank account? Will people here let me bang their women? Or maybe I'll become president of the U.S.? What do I have to gain? Please tell me. And if you want to say I have "Sherdog Rep" to gain my question remains; FOR WHAT? What does it benefit me to try to impress a bunch of faceless strangers on the net that I do not personally know and am not friends with?

And to address your whole "intimidating everyone" idea, Jabar and Mousey were both quite low on the hierarchy. Small in stature and basically bummy. And allowing themselves to get hooked on crack (and who knows what else) sure didn't help them. I never threatened Jabar that night or said anything to him. Mousey was just getting on my nerves because he was acting weird. But I handled them the way I did because I knew that I could. Like them I too knew my place in the hierarchy. No, I did not sit at the top of the food chain but I occupied a slightly higher place than them. They knew their place with me and stayed in their lane just like I knew my place towards others and stayed in my lane. Plain and simple.

I take no offense to what you said and I hope that you do not take offense to what I am about to say. But no one here on sherdog (including you my friend) is worth me trying to impress. Especially when there is nothing to gain (nothing that I would want anyway) by doing so. I'll leave it at that and leave it up to you to continue fantasizing that I am interjecting myself in a Hood Movie.

No offense taken. I'm not going to call you a liar - was more trying to say that at first the story seemed a little too convenient, as people will often sometimes offer personal anecdotes to lend credence to their original argument.

Regardless, I think there is much we agree upon, and some minor stuff we don't. Which is fine. Thanks for keeping things civil despite my being a little pissy.

 

[ShinkanPo]

I'm fine.

And for the record I see nothing wrong with Ganja. I do not put ganja in the same category as heroin, meth and fentanyl. This is what I meant about drug users, not weed smokers.

I say Fentanyl is really bad that should really be banned look what it did to Duterte turned him into a total buffoon!.

http://news.abs-cbn.com/news/02/10/17/duterte-on-fentanyl-use-felt-like-cloud-nine

Duterte on Fentanyl use: Felt like cloud nine


MANILA – President Rodrigo Duterte on Friday brought up again his controversial use of pain reliever Fentanyl.

In a speech in Davao City, Duterte admitted that he took more than the required dosage of the pain reliever because apart from easing his burden, it also made him feel like he was “on cloud nine.”

“Iyung Fentanyl, the doctor stopped it because he got mad. I’m supposed to cut it into four pieces. Eh there was a time na 'yung buo nilagay ko because more than just the disappearance of pain, you feel that you are on cloud nine. Para bang everything is okay with the world, nothing to worry about,” he said.

Duterte has been criticized for casually talking about his use of the pain reliever, which some experts have described to be potentially addictive.

Duterte had to take Fentanyl after a motorcycle accident when he was 68 years old