Dutch Muay thai or Dutch Kickboxing?

[Manimal87]

.... Whats the right description? Ive heard about dutch kickboxing with influence of kyokushin kicks + western boxing. Some others say its basically muay thai with focus on combinations and its base is muay thai. Can someone explain it to me? Fighters like nieky holzken for example

 

[SuperLuigi]

They don't train half enough clinch to be considered MT imo. Barely any of them fight in FTR. Maybe it could once be called Dutch MT but today its very kickboxing. If you are just asking about the origin, it started as Kyokushin+boxing but they lost to a bunch of Thais and were influenced by MT.

 

[Vegeta]

Modern kickboxing, that's the right name.

 

[Boran]

In Holland people used to call it thaiboxing, even though it is actually kickboxing. Nowadays most people call it kickboxing in Holland.

The term Dutch kickboxing or Dutch Muay Thai I only heard here on this forum, but never in Holland. Dutch kickboxing seems more accurate to me. There are very few gyms with a more muay thai oriented style here.

 

[king of theRing]

In Holland people used to call it thaiboxing, even though it is actually kickboxing. Nowadays most people call it kickboxing in Holland.

The term Dutch kickboxing or Dutch Muay Thai I only heard here on this forum, but never in Holland. Dutch kickboxing seems more accurate to me. There are very few gyms with a more muay thai oriented style here.

Lucien carbin calls it dutch muay thai

 

[potemkin723]

There's no such thing as Dutch Muay Thai.. ..it's Dutch Kickboxing.

Every dutch gyms has it's history

The real history of dutch kickboxing started when they combine Kyokshin Karate with Boxing.. ...and competed in Thailand.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

If you are just asking about the origin, it started as Kyokushin+boxing but they lost to a bunch of Thais and were influenced by MT.

Where does the idea that kickboxing in the Netherlands was an original invention, which was the result of a some sort of synthesis between boxing and karate, come from? I don't think that's true to the history. As far as I can tell, none of these guys had boxing backgrounds and didn't invent or come up with anything original. From what I can tell, a bunch of dutch knockdown karate guys spent time in Japan and were exposed to muay thai there and then brought it home with them. In some cases the Dutch founding fathers were affiliated with or considered themselves disciples of Japanese muay thai gyms and teachers.

They pretty much just copied the Japanese, who were copying the Thais.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Where does the idea that kickboxing in the Netherlands was an original invention, which was the result of a some sort of synthesis between boxing and karate, come from? I don't think that's true to the history. As far as I can tell, none of these guys had boxing backgrounds and didn't invent or come up with anything original. From what I can tell, a bunch of dutch knockdown karate guys spent time in Japan and were exposed to muay thai there and then brought it home with them. In some cases the Dutch founding fathers were affiliated with or considered themselves disciples of Japanese muay thai gyms and teachers.

They pretty much just copied the Japanese, who were copying the Thais.

Its more the specific style of kickboxing that is characteristic of the Netherlands. I think the synthesis thing is a hypothesis modeled on the development of American longpants kickboxing. It is quite plausible though that the Dutch Kyokushin guys had already picked it up from Japanese kickboxers.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

I think the synthesis thing is a hypothesis modeled on the development of American longpants kickboxing.

But from what I've heard, the germ of American long pants kickboxing was Japanese as well. Some American point karate guy saw muay thai bouts in japan and wanted in on it. However, unlike the Dutch, the Americans did create a substantially different sport from Muay Thai, they thought up their own rules. Whereas, as far as I can tell, the Dutch just imported muay thai from Japan as they found it.

 

[jtwarwagon4life]

Its more the specific style of kickboxing that is characteristic of the Netherlands.

But, I don't think that there is a specific style of kickboxing that is characteristic of the Netherlands. And even if there is, I don't think that it is the result of some sort of fusion of karate or boxing or muay thai, or because that was the background of the first trainers in Holland. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying but I have heard people say things like that before.

First of all, if you look at muay thai fighters from Thailand, and probably Japan too, (and maybe even fighters from other stand up sports) you can find the so called "Dutch style" around well before the Dutch had even started doing muay thai. It would make a certain amount of sense if there were similarities between the way Japanese fighters fought and the way fighters from the Netherlands did, since the some of the same people who trained many of Japan's early muay thai fighters also trained many of the Netherland's earliest muay thai fighters and trainers.

Second, I don't see as much continuity of style in fighters from the Netherlands as some people do, if you look at the history. I think that Dutch fighters from the 70's and 80's especially, and even 90's, fight quite a bit differently from the way more modern fighters do. It doesn't really look like the so called "Dutch style" that everyone associates the Netherlands with.

I think that the "Dutch style" was more the result of Dutch gyms trying to streamline their training for kickboxing rules and that meant finding a formula that would work in K1. Prior to the (late?) 90's you can find fighters from the Netherlands competing under lots of different rulesets (WKA, PKA, K1, Muay Thai, Savate) and as a result I think the style(s) of fighting they used weren't the same as today; they weren't "Dutch style".

 

[Kanka]

When i think of modern dutch kickboxing i think of Mikes Gym and Hemmers Gym fighters

 

[SuperLuigi]

But from what I've heard, the germ of American long pants kickboxing was Japanese as well. Some American point karate guy saw muay thai bouts in japan and wanted in on it. However, unlike the Dutch, the Americans did create a substantially different sport from Muay Thai, they thought up their own rules. Whereas, as far as I can tell, the Dutch just imported muay thai from Japan as they found it.

Perhaps, but it seems quite intuitive that those full contact guys being culturally American would simply want to do Karate with boxing gloves on. I'm not ruling out your idea though. What exactly did you hear about this and from who?

But, I don't think that there is a specific style of kickboxing that is characteristic of the Netherlands. And even if there is, I don't think that it is the result of some sort of fusion of karate or boxing or muay thai, or because that was the background of the first trainers in Holland. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying but I have heard people say things like that before.

First of all, if you look at muay thai fighters from Thailand, and probably Japan too, (and maybe even fighters from other stand up sports) you can find the so called "Dutch style" around well before the Dutch had even started doing muay thai. It would make a certain amount of sense if there were similarities between the way Japanese fighters fought and the way fighters from the Netherlands did, since the some of the same people who trained many of Japan's early muay thai fighters also trained many of the Netherland's earliest muay thai fighters and trainers.

Second, I don't see as much continuity of style in fighters from the Netherlands as some people do, if you look at the history. I think that Dutch fighters from the 70's and 80's especially, and even 90's, fight quite a bit differently from the way more modern fighters do. It doesn't really look like the so called "Dutch style" that everyone associates the Netherlands with.

Indeed there is much nuance to the situation that isn't usually brought up in threads like this. Style trends change, and anything really specific probably wont last 20 years. With that said I think there are some very general trends that are somewhat stable. I remember seeing an interview with a Dutch guy from the late 90s or early 00s and he was talking about how the Dutch clinch less than the Thais but more than the Japanese. This generally seems true today. Another trend I noticed is they seem to emphasize going forward and getting finishes more. Kickboxing in the Netherlands has traditionally been heavily linked to the criminal world and it makes sense that criminals would emphasize aggression and violence.

I think that the "Dutch style" was more the result of Dutch gyms trying to streamline their training for kickboxing rules and that meant finding a formula that would work in K1. Prior to the (late?) 90's you can find fighters from the Netherlands competing under lots of different rulesets (WKA, PKA, K1, Muay Thai, Savate) and as a result I think the style(s) of fighting they used weren't the same as today; they weren't "Dutch style".

Good point, that would have had influence too.