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...also, the SEALs did not fuck up the mission. It is called 'bad luck'. The mission did not go according to plan. It happens a few times in the U.S. Marines and the U.S. Army.
Do you think USA war crimes during the Iraq war are overlooked? Is it all over?
- Thread starter slivercord
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...also, the SEALs did not fuck up the mission. It is called 'bad luck'. The mission did not go according to plan. It happens a few times in the U.S. Marines and the U.S. Army.
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Hasn't Luttrell been on record saying that whole operation was fucked from the time of their first radio check when they couldn't get through to their base?
It's used as a training example now is my understanding of what NOT to do essentially. Now protocol is if radio check with base fails you scrub the mission and start heading "home"
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Well, that is what they were trying to do until about 100 enemy soldiers surrounded them. They did accomplish the mission: "A reconnaissance and surveillance team is tasked to insert in the region of the suspected safe buildings of Ahmad Shah, observe and identify Shah and his men and specific locations." The problem became the extraction. In theory, the four men team would keep walking out of the area until they found a suitable position for communications. The fourth option which the SEALs left out was to take the 3 prisoners with them and release them once they were far enough away from the village. I can see issues with a regular multi-band radio (mountains), but not a satellite phone (maybe clouds and the weather).
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Mistakes in combat costs lives. Fuck, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time costs lives. I probably made a dozen mistakes everyday I was overseas that should have killed me, some nearly did. I also saw Marines and SEALs make mistakes in Ramadi that cost lives.
No, they fucked up the mission. They inserted way too close and they got caught by goat herders by choosing a bad position to observe from. The entire valley knew Americans were out there from the false drops. They fucked up the decision to let the herders go instead of cuffing and escorting them back to an extraction point. They didn't have good exfil routes planned. There was tons of things that were wrong with that mission. That entire fiasco was a well known learning curve for the entire SEAL community.
It is what it is. I don't think they deserved to die, but they made bad choices in that mission and it resulted in their deaths. Combat is a game with heavy consequences.
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Well they knew they were in an area with poor comms and that happens. I ran missions without good comms plenty of times. I believe they expected that they might miss a few check ins.
But yes, the mission was a giant cluster fuck to begin with. And I can't speak for the SEAL community, but I can speak on what I saw with my own eyes. Because of my security clearance you need for Marine Recon, I was pulled to run as security attachment to one of the teams in Ramadi. I wasn't allowed full access to their intel but it was good enough to sit in the vehicle with them and go post up as a security element while they did their thing. We did various raids on HVTs, we found some huge caches and had some gun fights. All in all... I just wasn't impressed. And I catch shit every time from fanboys but I watched a shit show for several weeks.
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I've heard SEAL teams can be real hit and miss depending on the guys that are in them. Some are giant clusterfucks while others are ran so machine like my friends that did shit with them would ask them if they were a part of Skynet.
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Well I certainly wasn't working with DEVGRU, that's for sure. Watched them make a bunch of elementary mistakes that you wouldn't expect from a SOF operator. Generally seemed not very well prepped for the job at hand for my time with them.
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"Do you think USA war crimes during the Iraq war are overlooked?" @slivercord
No.
Well, in some ways war is a crime. Definitely when it involves innocent civilians. Show me a country with an Army in all of history that has not done that during war. British and U.S. bombings of Dresden (Germany) at the end of WWII was definitely a war crime. Some consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime. None of the 3 cities had any military value. Well, a knife in the kitchen could be considered a weapon of war that needs to be destroyed.
We are all guilty of something. We are all sinful under the eyes of God.
"...You may not know why you are beating the prisoner, but he knows why he is being beaten. Once you are done beating the prisoner, beat him some more, the truth comes out eventually."
No.
Well, in some ways war is a crime. Definitely when it involves innocent civilians. Show me a country with an Army in all of history that has not done that during war. British and U.S. bombings of Dresden (Germany) at the end of WWII was definitely a war crime. Some consider Hiroshima and Nagasaki a war crime. None of the 3 cities had any military value. Well, a knife in the kitchen could be considered a weapon of war that needs to be destroyed.
We are all guilty of something. We are all sinful under the eyes of God.
"...You may not know why you are beating the prisoner, but he knows why he is being beaten. Once you are done beating the prisoner, beat him some more, the truth comes out eventually."
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The 'Bhagavad-Gita' is 700-verse Hindu scripture that centers on a dialogue between a great warrior prince called 'Arjuna' and his charioteer Lord Krishna, an incarnation of 'Vishnu'.
Facing an opposing Army containing his friends and relatives, Arjuna is torn. But Krishna teaches him about a higher philosophy that will enable him to carry out his duties as a warrior irrespective of his personal concerns. This is known as the 'dharma', or holy duty. It is one of the four key lessons of the Bhagavad-Gita: desire, wealth, righteousness, and liberation.
'Vishnu' is trying to persuade the prince that he should do his duty and, to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."
Facing an opposing Army containing his friends and relatives, Arjuna is torn. But Krishna teaches him about a higher philosophy that will enable him to carry out his duties as a warrior irrespective of his personal concerns. This is known as the 'dharma', or holy duty. It is one of the four key lessons of the Bhagavad-Gita: desire, wealth, righteousness, and liberation.
'Vishnu' is trying to persuade the prince that he should do his duty and, to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds."
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I was so fucking shook when I read that. Taking their files is one thing, but allowing them to live and paying them is another.
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You should also read about the concentration camp experiments of Dr. Josef Mengele of the German (SS) during WWII. His favorite subjects were Jewish twins. Also, read about U.S. experiments on soldiers. Black soldiers in particular.
Unethical human experimentation in the United States
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States
Edgewood Arsenal human experiments
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgewood_Arsenal_human_experiments
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Man I've gone down this rabbit hole before. Came out thinking I just spent three hours learning to never feel joy again, I've legit combed through that entire first link you sent.
I wish that shit was taught in schools.
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Yeah unit 731 was too much for me. History will make you a snob and a cynical.
I remember a psychology student taking a class with us claiming.
" I just refuse to believe that people can be so cruel with each other!"
I guess rich kids can afford to do that.
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I think life takes an almost forced naivete to get through, refusing to believe is true is inherent to most happiness.
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I guess so, maybe I am bitter that I had to have to get good friends murdered and my father almost killed ( he is in a wheelchair now) to get rid of my stupid naivety. Some people cannot afford to live as such. A lot of people in Brazil claim that the violence is not that bad, for there is violence everywhere.
Not like in Brazil
