*Do you know any TMA academy in your local area that you would consider "legit"?*

[tasticles]

The word TMA and "legit" or "good enough for self defense" usually don't go together.

I know this from first hand experience. Took karate and kung fu. The Karate school was a non McDojo, Shorin Ryo Karate, but its training methods lacked modernization like MMA (technique refinement, conditioning, sparring).

Most, if not all, of TMA schools suffer from the same inherently flawed system of hanging on to traditions (keeping techniques that are impractical, doing forms, aka katas). TMAs also do not evolve their techniques and discourage students to make alteration to techniques, because changing techniques is considered a blasphemy to the lineage and grand masters.

If you are really adamant about taking a TMA, I'd suggest taking Judo. Judo's techniques are based on actual competition, and because of this reason, it's practical in a real situation.

Excellent post. I'm confused why the TS is shitting on judo. It's an excellent base. Ask Fedor or half the old pride roster.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

there is a big difference in throwing a regular knee vs a real knee strike thrown by a legit muay thai practicioner. Seems like u have no idea what you are talking about.

Actually there are a plethora of ways to throw a knee strike in Muay thai. Perhaps dozens in fact.Some engage the hips more than others along with other variances.

Ive seen sanshou fights with knees thrown.

And they are rare and largely regulated to being a banned attack like Elbows so why on earth you keep harping on about knees in a style where they rarely are allowed is telling.

tCould be late 40's or 50's also i remember reading the history years ago.

Nope Sandas origins go back to the 1920s. Youre issue seems to be that you are attempting to argue a point from an article you vaguely remember

During this Republic period between 1912 to 1949 Chinese martial arts became more accessible to the general public as many practitioners of martial arts were encouraged to openly teach to the public. At that time, some considered martial arts as a means to promote national pride and build a strong nation. As a result, many Schools and academies were created and training manuels were published.

It was during this Republic period that modern day Sanshou developed through the Chinese military. It was based upon intense study of techniques and applications from various traditional martial art fighting systems such as Bagua, Drunken Boxing, Eagle Claw, Five Animals, Hsing I, Hung Gar, Lau Gar, Monkey, Bak Mei Pai, Praying Mantis, Fujian White Crane,Wing Chun and Tai Chi Chuan. All of which developed over centuries after having incorporated forms that came into existence later.

The Chinese military primarily looked at methods focusing on unarmed combat but also looked into the practice of training with weapons. Their aim was to develop a complete martial art system including defence against bladed weapons and firearms.

In 1924, the Guomindang (Chinese National Party) established the Whampoa Military Academy in Canton province, Southern China in order to train the Party’s leaders and create a modern military force. In January 1923 they had formed a strategic alliance with the Soviet Union. The Academy utilised Soviet methods to establish party discipline, political instruction and training of military personnel.

Between 1904 and 1905 during the war between Russia and Japan, Russian forces experienced heavy losses with the Japanese in close quarter combat. They felt something had to be done and steps were taken to develop better methods of training soldiers for close quarter combat. The project was made official under the leadership of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in 1917. The result of this project is what is today known as Sambo.

The Soviet military and the creators of Sambo felt a sport form was needed which could be safely practiced on a regular basis. This would also incorporate modern advancements in sports medicine and training methodology. All of which taught to them under the guidance of a skilled coach.

Under the tutelage of Soviet advisors, the Chinese endeavored to create a similar method of training their military forces. The program was perhaps more important to the Chinese who lacked an industrial base and access to most modern warfare technology. The Whampoa military instructors who studied the traditional martial art styles combined them with the modern training methods and created Sanshou and the decision was made to use a Kickboxing like format when practiced.

Ground fighting was never introduced at this time as they believed that most self defense situations are initiated from a standing position. Furthermore, being on the ground for long periods makes you more venerable to attack and the surface itself could present numerous dangers especially when falling. Therefore Sanshou was developed to avoid confrontation on the ground focusing on skills in striking, kicking, wrestling, throwing and takedowns as well as joint locking and seizing. The idea was to stay on your feet the most effective way possible.

To further improve military personnel the Whampoa Academy would frequently hold competitive events between the soldiers to test and practice their barehanded martial skills, ability and techniques. These bouts would be fought on a raised platform called a “Lei Tai”. Historically, “Lei Tai” fights dates back centuries in China where challenge matches would be fought both barehanded and with weapons. Often these bouts would end in serious injury or death.

With Sanshou being taught and practiced on a wider scale outside of the military the Central Wushu Institute was established in Nan Jing (or Nanking) in 1928 and a National Chinese tournament was held featuring competitions in long weapons, short weapons, Sanshou and Shuai Jiao (Chinese wresting). The fights on the “Lei Tai” were so brutal that the final 12 contestants were not permitted to fight through fear of killing off some of the great masters of that time. There was also a tournament held in 1933 with a similar outcome so changes were needed.

Modern Sanshou developed into a sport at the same time as modern Wushu during the 1960’s and protective equipment was introduced. Gloves, head-guards and body armours would now be worn during competitive bouts. Also, a set of rules were introduced to reduce the risk of serious injury. These rules would allow for a wide array of full contact punching, kicking, takedowns and throws taken from the traditional applications but the use of knees, elbows, chokes, joint locks and submission holds would be excluded.

http://www.sanshouuk.co.uk/history.html

The chinese can deny it as much as they want but muay thai influenced sanda or sanshou or wtf u want to call it. You just twisting my words now.. AS i said kung fu vs muay thai is the origin of sanda or Sanshou. You keep saying this is about the origins of sanda and its exactly what im saying. You like a crazy leftist sjw twisting words for your agenda

The Chinese aren't denying anything. You're claim that this is a result of nationalistic Chinese pride is nonsensical given the Chinese acknowledged Sanda was influenced by Sambo and in turn combined with Western boxing. You have had time you produce evidence of this supposed Sanda vs Muay thai match from the 60s or 70s and failed to do so and then changed your mind and claimed it wasn't even Sanda but random Kung fu practioners who fought Thais during this time.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

https://web.archive.org/web/20120510030723/http://crane.50megs.com/index6r.htm Here is some of that old history of mt vs kung fu. Not everything is there though but good enough.

 

[beastman]

Shidokan Karate can be pretty crazy

 

[NoSmilez]

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/article-1920s-challenge-matches-kung-fu-vs-mt.1003241/ I found the link on sherdog of all places haha. It was in the 20's. The site is no longer there though. Anyone know the wayback thing to find old sites ?

Dude it's Hong Kong and Malaysia. Hong Kong definitely isn't "China" at that time. The dates listed are from 1958-1984. If you mentioned muay thai influence and western boxing influence in HK; I would have to agree.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

Actually there are a plethora of ways to throw a knee strike in Muay thai. Perhaps dozens in fact.Some engage the hips more than others along with other variances.




And they are rare and largely regulated to being a banned attack like Elbows so why on earth you keep harping on about knees in a style where they rarely are allowed is telling.




Nope Sandas origins go back to the 1920s. Youre issue seems to be that you are attempting to argue a point from an article you vaguely remember


http://www.sanshouuk.co.uk/history.html



The Chinese aren't denying anything. You're claim that this is a result of nationalistic Chinese pride is nonsensical given the Chinese acknowledged Sanda was influenced by Sambo and in turn combined with Western boxing. You have had time you produce evidence of this supposed Sanda vs Muay thai match from the 60s or 70s and failed to do so and then changed your mind and claimed it wasn't even Sanda but random Kung fu practioners who fought Thais during this time.

Yep you are right about the 1920's coincidentally the same time the challenge matches was held lmao. So there we go also ive been practicing muay thai since 2004 and most my ko's comes from knees so i dont need education on that

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

Dude it's Hong Kong and Malaysia. Hong Kong definitely isn't "China" at that time. The dates listed are from 1958-1984. If you mentioned muay thai influence and western boxing influence in HK; I would have to agree.

On the 6th of August 1921, for the first time in history, an old Southern Kungfu master, Mr Zi Zheng, officially fought the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden in Bangkok, on a simple wooden platform. He, along with 3 other Kungfu masters, Han Hongdun, Wu Daqian & Fu Xingpeng, all of Hainan descent, tested out the effectiveness of their styles against the early Muaythai fighters in a free-style match-up. How did it go? Well, Mr Zi Zheng was knocked out in a single round, & it was no different for the rest of the Kungfu masters. Without a doubt, they were totally ineffective in a real fight. And the Thai fighters, especially Nai Yahng, gained instant fame for disposing of Chinese Kungfu so quickly. Of course, the Chinese were not satisfied of their defeat as always.

 

[BLACKWOLF]

I learnt TKD as a kid from a guy who worked as a body guard in his early years then as a bouncer later on, he had been taught in Korea and received his black belt from Chong Hong Hoi the founder, that was legit. Since I loved though I haven’t found a good TKD gym and just moved into kickboxing

 

[superpunch]

Shidokan Karate can be pretty crazy

That's not crazy, just 'tarded. Looks more karate can just be retarded. They put a 25 year old built like Mark Hunt up against a 50 year old built like George Roop.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Yep you are right about the 1920's coincidentally the same time the challenge matches was held lmao.

Chinese nationalists made sanda after getting destroyed by Muay thai in the 60's and 70's.

Given you just blatantly contradicted yourself im suspecting you have suffered one too many knee strike kos.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

Given you just blatantly contradicted yourself im suspecting you have suffered one too many knee strike kos.

I was wrong about the years since i read that shit ten years ago lol.

As i said chinese nationalist made sanda after getting beat by muay thai. How did i say it was sanda vs muay thai when sanda got created because of those fights? You sound like you been on the recevieng end of some sweet ko's. I was wrong about the dates but its even better that it was in the 20's. Evidence even stronger

Edit : here if u didnt read it ill post again On the 6th of August 1921, for the first time in history, an old Southern Kungfu master, Mr Zi Zheng, officially fought the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden in Bangkok, on a simple wooden platform. He, along with 3 other Kungfu masters, Han Hongdun, Wu Daqian & Fu Xingpeng, all of Hainan descent, tested out the effectiveness of their styles against the early Muaythai fighters in a free-style match-up. How did it go? Well, Mr Zi Zheng was knocked out in a single round, & it was no different for the rest of the Kungfu masters. Without a doubt, they were totally ineffective in a real fight. And the Thai fighters, especially Nai Yahng, gained instant fame for disposing of Chinese Kungfu so quickly. Of course, the Chinese were not satisfied of their defeat as always.

 

[tasticles]

Given you just blatantly contradicted yourself im suspecting you have suffered one too many knee strike kos.

I think hes confusing information from other origins. Karateka were having a hard time with muay thai fighters and thus K 1 was born.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

I think hes confusing information from other origins. Karateka were having a hard time with muay thai fighters and thus K 1 was born.

No wrong. I said 60's and 70's because i didnt remember. I found some of the history and indeed it was in the 20's just like the guy said sanda got created in the 20's. Thats just more evidence that sanda got created after thise challenge matches

 

[TITS]

Got humbled by a 115lbs woman during sparring.

Was this at the PrideJitzoo academy?

 

[Rozko]

Was this at the PrideJitzoo academy?

She was a Judoka from Club Olympia under Lynn Roethke.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

I was wrong about the years since i read that shit ten years ago lol.

And that begs the question of what else are you wrong about. If you were sensible you would have stopped and acknowledged this

Edit : here if u didnt read it ill post again On the 6th of August 1921, for the first time in history, an old Southern Kungfu master, Mr Zi Zheng, officially fought the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden in Bangkok, on a simple wooden platform. He, along with 3 other Kungfu masters, Wu Daqian & Fu Xingpeng, all of Hainan descent, tested out the effectiveness of their styles against the early Muaythai fighters in a free-style match-up. How did it go? Well, Mr Zi Zheng was knocked out in a single round, & it was no different for the rest of the Kungfu masters. Without a doubt, they were totally ineffective in a real fight. And the Thai fighters, especially Nai Yahng, gained instant fame for disposing of Chinese Kungfu so quickly. Of course, the Chinese were not satisfied of their defeat as always.

sigh

!. first you post a blurb from an article you don't even link and can't substantiate as valid.

2. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand outside of you wishing to link to Sanda which you again have failed to provide evidence for. While there is plenty of evidence Sanda sprang out of the Chinese military via Russian influence.

3. Theres nothing to find in regards to who Zi Zheng Wu Daqian or Fux Xingpeng were. No wirtings about them being renown teachers with gyms or fighters etc,etc Once again how does some random Kung fu practitioners fighting a Thai interconnect with The history of Sanda? You simply wanted to be so is not a valid arguement.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

Given you just blatantly contradicted yourself im suspecting you have suffered one too many knee strike kos.

Thus in the subsequent year, on May 13th of 1922, again at the Rose Garden, the Chinese sent yet another well-known Shaolin Kung fu master, Mr. Lai Hu, the “Iron Tiger”, to face Nai Yahng, who so easily defeated Zi Zheng the previous year. This match was called the “Clash of the Tigers”. The Chinese fighter, enjoying a twenty pound weight advantage, managed to take Nai into the second frame before he too was knocked out by the Muaykorat boxer. Two months later however, on the 29th of July, yet another Chinese fighter, Li De, challenged the Highland Tiger and, impressively lasted the full three rounds, flooring Nai repeatedly using modified Thai techniques, marking the earliest known introduction of modern Indo-Chinese boxing technique into the Chinese martial vocabulary.

Although it is unclear how far the Thai influence may have spread inside of China, at least one other fighter, Yun Jie, fought in Bangkok. Once on the 31st of January 1929, and again in October 1930 using Muaythai techniques, winning one of the two bouts. Modern Chinese kickboxing (ring SanDa) is heavily influenced by the Thai style, although it is unclear as of this writing whether this original cadre of Muaythai-influenced Chinese fighters had any students. https://mixedmartialartshistory.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/a-leg-to-stand-on/ You are still stuck on the 60's comment even though i corrected myself right after. U have nothing lol.. Also ofcourse the chinese will claim its from their russian communist friends haha. They hate the darkskinned inferior thais

 

[NoSmilez]

On the 6th of August 1921, for the first time in history, an old Southern Kungfu master, Mr Zi Zheng, officially fought the "Highland Tiger" Nai Yahng at the Rose Garden in Bangkok, on a simple wooden platform. He, along with 3 other Kungfu masters, Han Hongdun, Wu Daqian & Fu Xingpeng, all of Hainan descent, tested out the effectiveness of their styles against the early Muaythai fighters in a free-style match-up. How did it go? Well, Mr Zi Zheng was knocked out in a single round, & it was no different for the rest of the Kungfu masters. Without a doubt, they were totally ineffective in a real fight. And the Thai fighters, especially Nai Yahng, gained instant fame for disposing of Chinese Kungfu so quickly. Of course, the Chinese were not satisfied of their defeat as always.

I am looking at history of Muay thai vs Sanda? The archive isn't showing any 1920s. I just copied and pasted parts of paragraph but I found links that cite itself. I actually tineye the pictures and I do not believe the 1920s stuff is true. I see the complete collection of the pictures on the other sites with other references. Even look at the one of the Kung Fu masters; the dude is wearing a western shirt and pants. I think this is a made up story using muay boran pictures or it is a real story using fake pictures. Those pictures came from a Muay Boran book.

The paragraph doesn't make sense either. Hainan is a jungle island off the coast of China. It's like a cross between Hawaii and Australia where the Chinese dumped their exiled prisoners but then again it would be a place to run if the government didn't like you. Those folks aren't traveling the world to challenge people into fights though.

 

[Khalabeeb Stiopic]

I am looking at history of Muay thai vs Sanda? The archive isn't showing any 1920s. I just copied and pasted parts of paragraph but I found links that cite itself. I actually tineye the pictures and I do not believe the 1920s stuff is true. I see the complete collection of the pictures on the other sites with other references. Even look at the one of the Kung Fu masters; the dude is wearing a western shirt and pants. I think this is a made up story using muay boran pictures or it is a real story using fake pictures. Those pictures came from a Muay Boran book.

The paragraph doesn't make sense either. Hainan is a jungle island off the coast of China. It's like a cross between Hawaii and Australia where the Chinese dumped their exiled prisoners but then again it would be a place to run if the government didn't like you. Those folks aren't traveling the world to challenge people into fights though.[/QUOTE You dont want to believe it its ok. You do you

 

[NoSmilez]

http://www.effectivemuaythai.com/images/history-of-muay-thai.jpg
This doesn't make sense. Look at the pictures for the 1920s reference. Dude has western clothing and short hair.
The 1960s stuff is accurate.