Do you guys use the 5x5 "Starting Strength" routine by Rippetoe?

[Kenjamito]

Please don't move this as I'd like the fighter's perspective... I'm really curious what fighters are using this powerlifting program. It seems anytime the question about strength work comes up in the S&C forum for fighters they point to this powerlifting routine. I know there's some real boxers, MT, and MMA competitors that read this, are you guys on this powerlifting routine? It's completely contrary to what I'm directed to do in gyms, which is bodyweight work with some free weight add ons if there's time. I already know in order of importance it is working skills, then sprints or cardio, then strength stuff. I wouldn't say I approach strength as an afterthought, but I wonder if say I had a chest day instead of doing 4x10 hand-clapping push-ups and then 4x20 free weight chest presses, if it would be better to go to the 5x5 routine with a heavier weight instead.

 

[zapataxiv]

I use the 5x5 madcow routine and it works wonders for what it is supposed to do, which is build strength.
thing is when you are working out you need to have a plan for what you want to achieve, so if you want to be stronger and more athletic then doing proper program or putting thought into technique and how you plan your weight lifting routine.

Spoiler

also just to add incase this comes up 1. powerlifting does not mean you will become bulky and slow 2. powerlifting does not need you to become fat

personally powerlifting helped also with discovering how to use my hips, before i leaned how to properly squat and deadlift my hips were super stiff and my body just wasn't used to motions using the hips which obviously negatively affected my boxing (Deadlifting also helped me to fix my back problems). That being said weightlifting was not required to learn how to use my hips i just hd inattentive/ inadequate coach up until that point.

also just to add a note from the best coach i ever learned from " If you wan to get better at boxing, then you need to practice boxing". the problem was he was the only trainer i have met who knew all the ways to train somebody with just boxing.

 

[Kenjamito]

also just to add a note from the best coach i ever learned from " If you wan to get better at boxing, then you need to practice boxing"..

I completely agree, technique work is most important first and foremost....I am just curious when I am putting in the extra time how I might get more out of my strength workouts. I tried doing my usual bodyweight stuff tonight and when I used dumb bells for chest exercises I did the 5x5 thing...still wasn't sure what to do for dips....weighted dips is the answer I guess, but what a hassle lol....

 

[zapataxiv]

first of all when doing 5x5 you need to be using a barbell, and secondly i would seriously recommend using one of the well made spreadsheets they have available in the S&C to structure it.

weighted dips are awesome they helped me take my bench from a wimpy one to something my i could be proud of. does your gym have one of the belts with the chain on it to attach weights

 

[panamaican]

5x5 is very good. Personally I've moved to body weight stuff.

Here's what I learned from doing both.:

I think that body weight is better overall for combat sports. It helped with overall fluidity in a way that 5x5 didn't.

However, if you don't have a well designed body weight program then you're going to end up wasting your time. Like anything, progressions matter. If you're not moving to harder and harder bw exercises you're stagnating.

Eventually you're going to max out bw and that's when you should move to weight work. But most people never come close because they don't have a good bw system.

Can you do 1 arm push-ups? 1 arm pull ups, pistol squats?

Those exercises work chest, back and leg strength but also tax your balance and control of movement in a way that weights don't. Most strong people fail those exercises on a balance side, not the strength side.

Anyway just my $0.02. You'll get strong faster with weights but bw has a lot of combat sports benefits with a good set of progressions.

 

[panamaican]

Forgot to add some things.

I mentioned balance and bw because it's so important in fighting. You're rarely punching, kicking, clinching from a neutral position. Usually one side has to apply more work. The kicking leg, punching side, the arm with the underhook or overhook. I found that bw made me more aware and better at applying the kinetic chain on just one side of the body. Not just for technique but strength in technique.

Im done now, I promise.

 

[jonander50]

It makes you faster but my experience is that it taxes too much so you cant train the other neccesary things like cardio, drills...

 

[AminoAcid]

TS, I used to do the 5×5 Mark Rippetoe program in high school. But back then, I only did 3×5, which is 3 sets of 5 repetitions.

I altered it a bit, just as everyone should because different things work for different people. I did body weight exercises after all of the lifting was done. E.g. on bench and deadlift day I would do dips at the end, 3 sets of 10. And after the shoulder workout, I would do pullups.

Body weight and weighted exercises are very important for athletes.

It's a good program. The most important thing however are the lifts. It's composed of compound exercises which are the best for building strength. As long as you do compound exercises effectively, I personally don't believe you need to follow a program directly.

 

[Sano]

Personally I like using both. Barbells and BW stuff both have their place. Dumbbells, machines and bands too. Even rings and bars can be great. It's not so much about the tool as it is using it well, smart and having a certain goal in mind.

The rep and set scheme also varies. 5x5 is alright, but you can do it however you want and in regards to what you want to achieve.

Personally I think that practicing and getting good at a squat and a deadlift variation (without chasing numbers) is great for your lower body strength, injury prevention and overall body mechanics. It's about getting good at the movements and progressively loading over time, then the strength will come. Add to that some single leg work like single leg lunges and single leg deadlift variations with dumbbells and you get some great balance, stability and athletic benefits. Pistols are also great, but requires a mobility that might take some time to build up to. Using a few assistance exercises like leg curls or GHR helps prevent especially knee injuries as well. Band pulls for healthy shoulders and progressive BW work for your upperbody. Perhaps some controlled dumbbell rows and OHP pressed with a barbell. That could be the meat of your exercise program.

What it really comes down to, no matter what, is a smart program with focus on form and a balanced program that targets bad habits and weak spots. I view this as something supplementary to your sport. Meaning you build your strength base slowly and focus on steady reps with a controlled eccentric. Build that base so that you are not only stronger, but less injury prone.

Then over time you can implement the power stuff like velocity training with barbells, plyos, med ball, hammers, power cleans, CMJ jump, agility drills, banded power punches, knees and kicks, and generally start working more explosive components.

The really juicy stuff is sport specific work, but that takes someone who knows what they are doing. First things first.

 

[Kenjamito]

However, if you don't have a well designed body weight program then you're going to end up wasting your time. Like anything, progressions matter. If you're not moving to harder and harder bw exercises you're stagnating.

Do you know where I can get a program? What I was doing was things like 100 pull-ups, 100 dips, 4x10 sets of hand-clapping pushups, then 200 pushups, then 100 bodyweight squats, 200 calf raises. After this I'd throw in a lot of abs. Then I'd throw in dumb bells for chest/shoulders/ and hold one for squats. Never got into 1-armed stuff or pistol squats.

 

[panamaican]

What it really comes down to, no matter what, is a smart program with focus on form and a balanced program that targets bad habits and weak spots. I view this as something supplementary to your sport. Meaning you build your strength base slowly and focus on steady reps with a controlled eccentric. Build that base so that you are not only stronger, but less injury prone.

This doesn't get said enough.

I switched to bw stuff when had so many knee and ankle and shoulder pains that I was constantly taking time off from the gym to rehab. After several months, things I thought I was just going to have to live with I don't even feel anymore. I did it with bw but it's just as doable with weights (I just didn't understand that until later).

Lifting as a tool to fix imbalances and reduce injury is so important but rarely talked about.

 

[panamaican]

Do you know where I can get a program? What I was doing was things like 100 pull-ups, 100 dips, 4x10 sets of hand-clapping pushups, then 200 pushups, then 100 bodyweight squats, 200 calf raises. After this I'd throw in a lot of abs. Then I'd throw in dumb bells for chest/shoulders/ and hold one for squats. Never got into 1-armed stuff or pistol squats.

Personally, I like the progressions in Convict Conditioning (ignore the cheesy "theme") but some people find the pull up progression too difficult.

But there are some very good books out there. A lot of people like "You are your own gym" but I've never read it.

I like this one as well:

 

[Sano]

Personally, I like the progressions in Convict Conditioning (ignore the cheesy "theme") but some people find the pull up progression too difficult.

But there are some very good books out there. A lot of people like "You are your own gym" but I've never read it.

I like this one as well:

That is amazing! Is all that for free?

Clear progressions, keeping the rep and set scheme challenging making sure you're gaining strength, not going too fast with only 1 rep increase as maximum pr. session, clear and concise illustrations and instructions. Thanks a lot!

 

[Kenjamito]

Personally, I like the progressions in Convict Conditioning (ignore the cheesy "theme") but some people find the pull up progression too difficult.

But there are some very good books out there. A lot of people like "You are your own gym" but I've never read it.

I like this one as well:

Wow looks difficult. I'll have to give this thing a shot. My chest is killing me from the 5x5 dumb bell shit I was doing. Thanks for sharing.

 

[thugpoet]

5x5 is fine. you will probably feel sluggish once your strength numbers start getting higher because of the CNS being taxed harder.

 

[rmongler]

you will probably feel sluggish once your strength numbers start getting higher because of the CNS being taxed harder.

And so hence the myth of 'heavy lifting makes you slow'.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

5x5 is very good. Personally I've moved to body weight stuff.

Here's what I learned from doing both.:

I think that body weight is better overall for combat sports. It helped with overall fluidity in a way that 5x5 didn't.

However, if you don't have a well designed body weight program then you're going to end up wasting your time. Like anything, progressions matter. If you're not moving to harder and harder bw exercises you're stagnating.

Eventually you're going to max out bw and that's when you should move to weight work. But most people never come close because they don't have a good bw system.

Can you do 1 arm push-ups? 1 arm pull ups, pistol squats?

Those exercises work chest, back and leg strength but also tax your balance and control of movement in a way that weights don't. Most strong people fail those exercises on a balance side, not the strength side.

Anyway just my $0.02. You'll get strong faster with weights but bw has a lot of combat sports benefits with a good set of progressions.

How's your overall strength/durability now compared to when you used weights?

 

[panamaican]

How's your overall strength/durability now compared to when you used weights?

Durability is probably better. Strength is the same or better depending on what you're looking at. Shoulders and ankles are definitely stronger and ankles are much more flexible. Both are less injury prone than before. I'm stronger through the hips when crouching. So, I feel like I get better transfer of power from legs through my upper body. I'd say I'm stronger at all of my joints in general. I can't say much about traditional weightlifting max's since I don't lift anymore.

But I was never that guy benching 315 for reps or squatting 405. I think for guys who are already at those type of strength levels, they will see some loss of strength because no matter how many variations, you're ultimately limited by your actual body weight. Unless you buy a weight vest.

 

[MaxMMA]

The more the years go by, the further and further I drift away from S&C completely, as a stand alone workouts anyway (although I will admit ive been considering doing some squats and deadlifts 2-3 times a week to strengthen my legs). Most body conditioning you need for grappling or striking you will get from training grappling and striking.

Lifting weights imo just isn't a constructive use of time for a professional fighter. Even compound lifts don't come close to mimicking anything that would happen to your body in a fight. The proper lifting technique and hip placement for a double leg pickup for example, is completely different than doing a barbell squat. Energy spent in the weight room is energy that could be spent conditioning your body through martial arts drills.

I agree with panamanican that body weight routines place an emphasis on balance and coordination that you don't get with weights.

 

[selfcritical]

That is amazing! Is all that for free?

Clear progressions, keeping the rep and set scheme challenging making sure you're gaining strength, not going too fast with only 1 rep increase as maximum pr. session, clear and concise illustrations and instructions. Thanks a lot!

Yeah, convict conditioning is good. It's easy to fix the pull up progression (just do it like the push-ups and add more intermediary pulling angles)