Do you believe in "The End of History"?

[InternetHero]

I believe just the opposite. If anything Democracy will die and Authoritarianism will rise. especially in the US. This isn't just a Trump thing. Since the infusion of the Evangelical Right into the Republican party we have has the slow painful death of compromise. Democracy need compromise to stay alive. Also, the republicans have been attacking the foundations of free society for a while but are now doing in unabashedly. They want one Christian Authoritarian society and have been making great strides towards that.

They would love nothing better than to abolish the Democratic party

What would this terrible Evangelical dystopia look like?

Would we all be forced into daily Bible readings by animatronic impressions of Pat Robertson?

Not to "worry."

The Christian right has been in decline for a good while, and the National Right is probably going to fade away soon.

When big C-Conservatism fades away you will probably be able to enjoy a benign, indolent, and overly medicated society on a precipitous decline for a while. At least until something horrible happens with AI, or until a philosophy with that true authoritarian bite to which Americans have been unaccustomed comes home to fill the vacuous cultural vacuum.

 

[InternetHero]

How does your thinking on this change as religious belief decreases? I agree the evangelical right has destroyed the intellect of the right though.

We could only hope that an educated man of the religious right could stand athwart the angry/alternative/nationalist side of the right.

A David French mind you, and not a Jerry Falwell.

At the very least there would be a sense of principle over expediency.

 

[The Diplomat]

I don't believe capitalism or democracy is the end all philosophy, it's still relatively new in the grand scheme of things. It might transition into more socialistic tendencies, but I certainly don't see hardcore communism or anarchy being the next transition - save for maybe after a nuclear holocaust.

I do believe liberalism will continue to thrive, change and "progress", though.

 

[Fawlty]

We could only hope that an educated man of the religious right could stand athwart the angry/alternative/nationalist side of the right.

A David French mind you, and not a Jerry Falwell.

At the very least there would be a sense of principle over expediency.

We're there, for the most part. A whole lot of conveniently rational libertarian Christians are basically running every department of the government today. Don't like them.

I'm just not worried that with the decreasing religiosity of Americans (and it's taking for-fucking-ever) will come a religious authoritarianism with any significant staying power.

 

[Islam Imamate]

If human history continues as is, probably, although more as a twisted form of Technocracy imposing a type of soft-Orwellian sense of overlying control that provides middling opportunities and few freedoms coupled with a warped new idea of the self constructed out of whatever is expedient and plays to enhanced modern addictions.

The Orwellian state was always thought to come about as a result of the communist state but it seems like in reality its capitalism that's bringing it about and we're willingly accepting it. We're giving away our info voluntarily to large tech companies because of the utility we get in return and we're even bring in cameras into our homes of our own accord. The pieces of the totalitarian state are there, someone just needs to put it all together.

 

[InternetHero]

We're there, for the most part. A whole lot of conveniently rational libertarian Christians are basically running every department of the government today. Don't like them.

I'm just not worried that with the decreasing religiosity of Americans (and it's taking for-fucking-ever) will come a religious authoritarianism with any significant staying power.

Yeah, a wacky theocracy is not politically possible in my opinion, and would undoubtedly look like parts of traditional America rather than the Taliban or even Holy Roman Empire.

Thank you Martin Luther.

As for the former, they are not really "ruining" my Americas at the moment, despite whatever disagreements I might have with a Pence/Sessions opinion. Pence might even be respectable if he could stop kissing the Trump ring, Sessions is too legalistic for my liking.

As I go - Donald Trump in terms of corrupting the political system, discourse, and having awful character is the problem, and the forces he conned into his deal.

The Donald kept hitting about mid-40s to beat the other Republican candidates, but that was enough in a crowded field.

That leaves a difficult Conservative dilemma. (Not counting alt-right goofballs or nationalist minded hypocrites.)

I mean generally rational large C Conservatives.

Reject outright

Accept what is good, reject what is bad

Or try to excuse and rationalize

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Has anyone posted this yet?

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/04/elo...bs-government-will-have-to-pay-your-wage.html

Elon Musk essentially states that robots will replace a great deal of the work force, and that the government will have to allocate funds to citizens.

 

[Fawlty]

Has anyone posted this yet?

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/04/elo...bs-government-will-have-to-pay-your-wage.html

Elon Musk essentially states that robots will replace a great deal of the work force, and that the government will have to allocate funds to citizens.

That's one of the conditions under which the author of this thread's subject believes that his theory might fall apart. The other being human genetic engineering.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I wonder what @Jack V Savage thinks, when I made this thread I figured he'd be one poster who might still believe in The End of History as Fukiyama imagined it.

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's one of the conditions under which the author of this thread's subject believes that his theory might fall apart. The other being human genetic engineering.

Would that really be the end of liberal democracy and capitalism though? I imagine we would just move from more mundane jobs to more creative pursuits and spend our UBI on towards those ends in addition to leisure activities.

 

[Fawlty]

Yeah, a wacky theocracy is not politically possible in my opinion, and would undoubtedly look like parts of traditional America rather than the Taliban or even Holy Roman Empire.

Thank you Martin Luther.

As for the former, they are not really "ruining" my Americas at the moment, despite whatever disagreements I might have with a Pence/Sessions opinion. Pence might even be respectable if he could stop kissing the Trump ring, Sessions is too legalistic for my liking.

As I go - Donald Trump in terms of corrupting the political system, discourse, and having awful character is the problem, and the forces he conned into his deal.

The Donald kept hitting about mid-40s to beat the other Republican candidates, but that was enough in a crowded field.

That leaves a difficult Conservative dilemma. (Not counting alt-right goofballs or nationalist minded hypocrites.)

I mean generally rational large C Conservatives.

Reject outright

Accept what is good, reject what is bad

Or try to excuse and rationalize

I fail to see how Pence is respectable other than by comparison, and a zealot to boot. I could go for a few more Andrew Sullivans. I want my sworn enemy in politics to be David Frum. What a world that would be- French would be an extremist.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Here's another interesting article regarding robot/automation replacing the human work force on a wide scale.

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...governments-introduce-human-quotas-study-says

 

[Fawlty]

Would that really be the end of liberal democracy and capitalism though? I imagine we would just move from more mundane jobs to more creative pursuits and spend our UBI on towards those ends in addition to leisure activities.

Like I said earlier I think we're all-in on the concept of individual rights being independent (most useful fiction ever imo), so that might be enough to pull us toward liberal democracy orbit regardless. I think you're right that UBI will work just fine at that point. Low-level entrepreneurship will almost certainly move toward the best ROI (meaning lots more tries & failures) because you all but eliminate risk of ruin (real personal ruin). That has to be good for capitalism in a sense doesn't it? I dunno, I'm not an econ man but there is an upside there.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I think we end up either with a technological singularity where there are no more humans and the question is meaningless or we end up with stagnation in failed democracies like in latin america.
Basically as more third worlders migrate to the first world it will resemble our own nations. Public policy will be focused on maintaining peace among the mass of the impoverished, people that moved to the first world but have no relevant skills to succeed in it, through welfare policies while professional kleptocrats, high ranking public servants and businessmen will live in gated communities.
On the bright side it will not be Eurabia as retards claim.

Outside of the current Liberal democracies it will certainly not spread to the rest of the world. Just look at what happened in the Arab Spring, and look at China. What happens when democracy is forced into artificial nations rife with tribalism and sectarianism? What promotes the most progress outside of the western world? Democracy or an authoritarian technocracy?
Do anybody actually think Pakistan will one day become a liberal democracy? Or Egypt?
It seems that the reverse is happening, Turkey is becoming more authoritarian, so is Eastern Europe, Russia failed experiment with democracy in the 90s ended up with Putin as czar.

 

[InternetHero]

I fail to see how Pence is respectable other than by comparison, and a zealot to boot. I could go for a few more Andrew Sullivans. I want my sworn enemy in politics to be David Frum. What a world that would be- French would be an extremist.

This is likely a point where our politics and sense of things just diverge too far to agree.

But the solution to that is voting, and in fairness your way of seeing the situation will probably have more votes in the future.

No regrets there.

As long as a society is free to make these choices I, nor anyone else, can be too outraged.

Besides fixing the adrift education system, criminal enforcement deficiencies, and mental health problems in society are more important issues, and issues we can find agreement on.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

So you see the return of eugenics in our future?

I think all sorts of fucked up things are possible if we convince ourselves that perfection is achievable.

 

[Fawlty]

This is likely a point where our politics and sense of things just diverge too far to agree.

But the solution to that is voting, and in fairness your way of seeing the situation will probably have more votes in the future.

No regrets there.

As long as a society is free to make these choices I, nor anyone else, can be too outraged.

Besides fixing the adrift education system, criminal enforcement deficiencies, and mental health problems in society are more important issues, and issues we can find agreement on.

Do you have somebody in mind from the left who you would like to see as the borderline, where anybody left of him/her was basically out of the conversation?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think we end up either with a technological singularity where there are no more humans and the question is meaningless or we end up with stagnation in failed democracies like in latin america.
Basically as more third worlders migrate to the first world it will resemble our own nations. Public policy will be focused on maintaining peace among the mass of the impoverished, people that moved to the first world but have no relevant skills to succeed in it, through welfare policies while professional kleptocrats, high ranking public servants and businessmen will live in gated communities.
On the bright side it will not be Eurabia as retards claim.

So basically Children of Men?

Outside of the current Liberal democracies it will certainly not spread to the rest of the world. Just look at what happened in the Arab Spring, and look at China. What happens when democracy is forced into artificial nations rife with tribalism and sectarianism? What promotes the most progress outside of the western world? Democracy or an authoritarian technocracy?
Do anybody actually think Pakistan will one day become a liberal democracy? Or Egypt?
It seems that the reverse is happening, Turkey is becoming more authoritarian, so is Eastern Europe, Russia failed experiment with democracy in the 90s ended up with Putin as czar.

Well to be fair Tunisia has more or less democratized and Western Europe did not democratize in 8 years either. That said I'm not saying MENA will inevitably look like Western Europe. I tend to think Fareed Zakaria's prediction about the rise of illiberal democracies has truth to it as we see with the rise of the likes like Putin and I think illiberal democracy could easily spring up in the Muslim world.

People say Islam is incompatible with democracy but if that's true its only if by democracy you mean liberal democracy. The idea of electing one's leaders has plenty of history in the Islamic world and in fact it was more democratic before adopting European style government since the less efficient and less centralized household style of governance relied more on intermediaries that had some level of democratic legitimacy like the elected Shaykhs of the quarters and guilds.

 

[InternetHero]

Do you have somebody in mind from the left who you would like to see as the borderline, where anybody left of him/her was basically out of the conversation?

I think everyone should be a part of the conversation, but anyone who wants to silence other voices should speak more to the walls than our attentive ears.

 

[InternetHero]

So basically Children of Men?