Do today's deep weight cuts impact fight quality?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by MikeMcMann, May 19, 2017 at 8:58 AM.

  1. MikeMcMann Brown Belt

    MikeMcMann
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    This is a what if thread and the question is on weight cuts.

    For the sake of this thread we are only addressing the hypothetical of fighters being able to fight the same opponents they currently now fight for title runs but without any of them needing to weight cut and instead being able to fight at their more natural size.

    To keep it simple think of this way. Rockhold and Weidman can fight at their naturally trained weight of around 210lbs instead of cutting all the way down to 185lbs before going back up to 210lb on fight night.

    So the question is would they be in better shape and should that correlate to a better fight for fans if the weight cut was taken out?

    This is a question about the basic principle of 'do deep weight cuts generally impact training and fight quality due to the deleterious effects of a deep cut?'

    this may sound like a crazy question (as it does to me) but there are a large number of sherdog posters who argue their is no proof that deep weight cuts impact training or fight quality (@MonstaAJ , @Irishwhiskey119 ) which is based on the fact that you would need to see them first fight after a deep cut, then reverse through time and do the same fight again with them not cutting and compare results to PROVE that it impacted the fight and if you cannot do that then you never have proof and therefore cannot say the cut impacted the fight.


    Cliffs

    - does the deep weight cut process that most fighters engage in now impact fight quality
    - if it was possible to have the same people still matching up and fighting without a weight cut would those fights be better then they are when both cut
    - (this is not about whether you can make it work or if someone would still cheat the system)
     
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  2. tramendous Black Belt

    tramendous
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    i think its obvious that it does.
     
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  3. BigMuffler Pride of Ashlianna

    BigMuffler
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    Yes but how much depends on which fighters are fighting. Noticeable examples of big weight cut impacting fighter ability:

    Bigfoot Silva (had twig arms just to make 265)
    Johny Hendricks
    Chris Whiteman (gas tank)
    Claudia Gadelha (gas tank)

    Some big cutters OTOH have 5 rounds of gas and look great.
     
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  4. Tamriel Terror Red Belt

    Tamriel Terror
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    I think it does.

    Hell there have been several fighters that were either hospitalized, collapses/fainted, etc.
     
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    Last edited: May 19, 2017 at 9:12 AM
  5. Ying Li Green Belt

    Ying Li
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    Conor cut to 145 and looked near death, yet performed excellently. I think it depends on the fighter. Conor is a legit fighter (although I hate his trolls here and the Floyd b.s.).
     
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  6. gotBooched maximus entertainus

    gotBooched
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    I'm gonna have to vote no effect since most fighters are totally willing and seem to prefer fighting way below their natural weight. They've demonstrated for years this is preferred so I will take their word for it.
     
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  7. MikeMcMann Brown Belt

    MikeMcMann
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    I think you are making the mistake so many do and not understanding causation.

    Once upon a time fighters who cut did so to gain a very big advantage on the ones who did not. This advantage was particularly evident in the early days of MMA when American wrestlers (with a deep history of cutting) would fight Japanese or Brazilian fighters who did not have that history.

    I think we can all understand why someone would want to cut if it gave them an advantage. If, in my prior example, Rockhold was cutting from 210 to 185lbs to fight a Weidman who was naturally smaller than he is now and 185lbs that would be a significant advantage on fight day for Rockhold.

    Nowadays that advantage is largely nullified as most are doing the deep weight cuts so instead you have both Rockhold and Weidman cutting to NOT give up an advantage to the other which is very different than cutting to gain an advantage.
     
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  8. Sugar Shane White Belt

    Sugar Shane
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    You see fighters who started wrestling at a younger age have problems with cutting weight in their 30's. It takes a toll on your body over time. I don't think there is any doubt that a rough weight cut has an impact on performance. You can't dehydrate yourself to the levels it is being done at and come back 24 hours later and expect peak physical performance.
     
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  9. Merman Purple Belt

    Merman
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    Lessens the quality from a physiological standpoint.
     
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  10. gotBooched maximus entertainus

    gotBooched
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    I hear what you're saying but the fact is, no one is willing to start the trend of fighting at their natural weight because that person would be fucked. So they accept they must cut weight. 90%+ of fighters have major weight cuts (more than 10% of body weight) if I had to guess. I have nothing to base that off of other than the fact that few people weigh in looking hydrated.
     
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  11. Andre Xiong Professional Fighter

    Andre Xiong
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    weight cutting isn't a new phenomena, imo. nor are guys cutting "more" weight than ever. some guys, throughout time, can just cut more than others. not all the champs are big for their division, probably barely--Johnson is small yes even for 125, Garbrandt is avg sized, Conor is a bit above avg not the giant people make him to be, Bisping is not big and he's not his billed 6'2'' height either, he looks 6 ft at most.

    It's not just you want to fight smaller guys, sometimes you're just trying to find an even playing field because heavy guys are cutting down.
     
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  12. Xuh Black Belt

    Xuh
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    It's fun when someone gasses out due to a bad cut and gets smashed (plus there's a 'serves you right' sense of justice which adds to the fun)

    if they were at correct weights and noone gassed they'd just be playing safe sparring for 3 rounds and it'd be boring

    So I'd say massive weight cutting makes better quality fights, if by 'quality' you mean' Just Bleed'.
    I say make new rules that everyone has to cut at least 15% weight. More gassing, more damage, more entertainment

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. MikeMcMann Brown Belt

    MikeMcMann
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    You are missing the point of the hypothetical which does not concern itself with the reality of what people might or might not do.

    The question is simple.

    If Weidman and Rockhold are scheduled to fight in 6 months and they can fight either around their natural 'in-camp' training weight of around 210lbs without a cut ...OR... they can BOTH train and cut to 185lbs and then rehydrate to about 210lbs and fight , WOULD the fight between them be better quality with or without the cut? The assumption is that in neither case will one have a size advantage over the other.
     
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  14. Jeff Forrler Custom Pimp

    Jeff Forrler
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    Is that Angela Lee in your AV?
     
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  15. Xuh Black Belt

    Xuh
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  16. Irishwhiskey119 MMArmy.com Owner

    Irishwhiskey119
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    There is no proof whatsoever that the weight cuts affected the fights you brought up.

    Just saying that it does because it sounds like you are fighter's fan and a humanitarian doesn't prove anything scientifically on those nights. You can write full page stories passionately talking about it like you are a doctor but the reality is you don't know shit and are making assumptions. We have seen heavy cutters perform better than non cutters and vice versa many times as there are a plethora of variables that come into play that affect a fighter's performance.

    You have zero proof that Weidman vs Luke at 205 would be a better fight than at 185. Completely assuming and it'll never happen anyway.
     
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  17. Jeff Forrler Custom Pimp

    Jeff Forrler
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  18. runnpray Full Kit Wanker

    runnpray
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  19. runnpray Full Kit Wanker

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  20. lifelessheap Red Belt

    lifelessheap
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    Weidman was like 193 pounds a week out from his fight with Rockhold. He isn't big. At least for that fight.
     
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