Do people really think the shoulder crank jones did was "CHEAP"?

[Pacemaker Joe]

I can't stand Jones, but no, the cranks are fine. Refs need to start docking points for the eyepokes though, and not just from Jones.

 

[Wayweary]

Lol, there's always at least one.

I have no issues with violence, like at all. I've watched Jones and his broken toe, Silva and his broken leg, and countless people with blood gushing from their faces. Believe me, it's not something that concerns me.

But I do have an ideal of how I like to see fights. If that differs from yours, cool, no worries. When it comes to submissions (as a fighter myself, I use these submissions all the time) I'd be mad pissed if a guy just broke my elbow or shoulder with some sloppy armbar that he made no attempt to lock in, and just cranked with all his might half-assed.

To me, that is straight up bullshit. If I get punched in the face and my orbital broken, that's part of fighting. If my ribs get broken from a kick, again- that's part of it. But I expect to be given a chance before someone snaps my elbow, that's just how I view it.

Will dirty tactics always be present? Of course they will. That doesn't mean I have to like them, however. Have a nice day.

Sounds like you train more than you fight if that's how you see it.

 

[jdm17]

As soon as he did that I thought to myself I just saw a standing Mir lock. Very nice. Very creative by Jon. No issues here and I was rooting against him.

 

[Mistabutts]

Why, exactly?

I think we just have different ideas of what ruthless actually means. To me, it means that if someone is unwilling to tap, you have to be willing to go all the way and break the arm. If you don't even give them a chance to tap, then you're being unsporting, not ruthless.

All those people that lock up armbars- there is plenty of time given to tap. If you've trained, you know full well when an armbar is locked in, and you learn to tap and avoid further injury. But if someone half-asses it, and just cranks blindly- that's dangerous.

Like someone else said earlier, it's like wristlocks or fingerlocks- those suck, because they're on in a flash and you rarely get time to tap. They just straight up break. Those kind of holds are shitty in MMA because you get put on the shelf for a seriously long time, and sometimes you never fully recover. Personally speaking, I broke a minor bone in my hand some ten years ago- I actually never fully recovered my grip strength in that hand. I occasionally lose grip in gi training because of that injury.

It's a case of avoidable injuries (not being a dick with subs) vs unavoidable injuries (jaw/leg/hand/rib injuries as a result of striking).

If you think people should actually be ruthless, then watching bare-knuckle fights should be more appropriate. MMA has evolved into a sport where techniques are more important than trying to fuck someone's career up.

This shouldn't even really be a discussion, since most people in combat sports actually understand that distinction- it's something you learn in any submission based grappling art very, very early on.

I'll agree to disagree, however until the rules change for situations like this, wins are wins and people will only remember the wins in the long run.

 

[DysDave]

If you want to be effective, you don't put a submission on someone and gradually ease into it to give them every opportunity to tap without suffering an injury except in training. In an actual fight, a sudden application is almost necessary or the guy will get out. That goes for all submissions, including arm bars, etc. The thing about this particular attack is that it isn't a familiar technique that fighters are training for so they don't yet know to take steps to avoid it and don't know when their limb is in danger. That will change in the near future, I imagine.

But anyway, just because a technique seems to you to have the potential to injure doesn't mean it is wrong or unsporting at all. A powerful elbow strike has a high potential to cut and break orbitals as Jones and many other fighters have done enough times and there is no ability to "tap" before the damage is done. It is a sudden application of force. That's its nature and is necessary for it to be effective. It doesn't make it "unsporting."

The idea of a guy being able to tap out to a submission is a luxury you just can't afford them in all scenarios. In a fight, sometimes you are going to take damage unless you can always anticipate your opponent's moves and avoid or prevent them.

This is a particularly good point regarding the Jones technique. As it hasn't really been seen yet, that's why people are unaware of the potential dangers. So yeah, that'll change and people will be less likely to suffer a similar injury.

The thing is, I think we agree for the most part. I'm not talking about easing into a sub- you have to pull it into place hard and fast, and there's always the possibility of something being damaged. But once in place, and you've got it locked in- I think you have to keep applying pressure gradually and wait for the tap. If you've got it locked properly, they won't get out.

Two perfect examples are Jones/Vitor and Rousey/Tate 1. Vitor had a pretty good armbar on, felt something pop, and let go- but Jones didn't tap. I think Vitor done fucked up there, because it was down to Jones to tap- and letting go was the wrong thing.

Rousey/Tate had a similar situation, only Rousey kept cranking and fucked her arm up good. No problems with that.

But they both left time for the opponent to tap, they applied the pressure gradually. Not just lock it up and snap the arm. Vitor just wasn't willing to go far enough.

 

[DysDave]

I'll agree to disagree, however until the rules change for situations like this, wins are wins and people will only remember the wins in the long run.

For sure, and again- Jones fully deserves the W. He did nothing wrong in there (apart from the eyepokes, which are still bull). And yeah, winning is all that matters ultimately.

Although in danger of beating a dead horse at this point, to draw another analogy- in soccer, guys are falling like they've been shot from the slightest contact in order to win penalties and get players sent off. Whilst what they're doing isn't against the rules, and it's helping them win matches, and that's all that's going to be remembered- it's just a shitty thing to do. Just like in MMA, no one likes the guys that make excuses after fights and so on- just because something isn't necessarily against the rules, doesn't mean it isn't shitty to watch.

I will add that I don't remember seeing any real examples of someone breaking an arm or any other limb without giving their opponent fair warning, so most of this is a theoretical argument- and I'm not entirely sure where it really originated.

 

[Wayweary]

This is a particularly good point regarding the Jones technique. As it hasn't really been seen yet, that's why people are unaware of the potential dangers. So yeah, that'll change and people will be less likely to suffer a similar injury.

The thing is, I think we agree for the most part. I'm not talking about easing into a sub- you have to pull it into place hard and fast, and there's always the possibility of something being damaged. But once in place, and you've got it locked in- I think you have to keep applying pressure gradually and wait for the tap. If you've got it locked properly, they won't get out.

Two perfect examples are Jones/Vitor and Rousey/Tate 1. Vitor had a pretty good armbar on, felt something pop, and let go- but Jones didn't tap. I think Vitor done fucked up there, because it was down to Jones to tap- and letting go was the wrong thing.

Rousey/Tate had a similar situation, only Rousey kept cranking and fucked her arm up good. No problems with that.

But they both left time for the opponent to tap, they applied the pressure gradually. Not just lock it up and snap the arm. Vitor just wasn't willing to go far enough.

I don't think Vitor had mercy on Jones at all. He just couldn't complete the sub. If you are willing to take the damage to your arm, you can get out of an arm lock by letting them dislocate your arm. Of course, in a pro fight, that is a technical submission but if the elbow just pops and doesn't break, obviously the fight continues. If your opponent doesn't tap, you keep cranking. Even a first time pro fighter should understand that eventuality. I'm sure Vitor understands that and if he says he released the arm bar because Jones wasn't tapping he is making excuses.

 

[Enigma87]

I'm not even a fan of Jones and I have to admit that wasn't cheap at all. For some reason the inward kicks to the knees do bother me, but that crank was as legit as any submission a fighter can hold

 

[Irenaeus]

Dont worry the Jones hater brotherhood needs anything to hate on it.

I disagree, and I think you're handicapping your own thinking process by using this line of reasoning.

This shouldn't even really be a discussion, since most people in combat sports actually understand that distinction- it's something you learn in any submission based grappling art very, very early on.

While I'd be proper pissed of somebody pulled that on me in sparring or amateur competition, I disagree with this in the context of MMA. Once you accept punching people in the face as a valid technique, it changes how much consideration should be given an opponent when applying a sub. The same goes for when stakes are much, much higher than in an amateur comp, and pros are competing.

If Jones applied force slowly to that lock, it wouldn't accomplish anything, since he didn't control Glovers body at all, and he could easily adjust.

Sounds like you train more than you fight if that's how you see it.

Everyone who can fight trains more than they fight.

 

[goodone2]

I remember seeing a Greco-Roman wrestler use it in the Olympics years ago, snapped his arm, nothing wrong with it, totally legit.

 

[Wayweary]

Everyone who can fight trains more than they fight.

Obviously. But I was intimating he is more of a sparring guy than he is a fighter, it seems. When I say "more," it is in relative terms. Everyone who fights professionally calls themselves a "fighter" even though they spend a minute amount of time actually fighting compared to training - they don't go around saying they are a "trainee" that sometimes fights or something... Was the point really lost on you or were you just trying to be a smart ass?

 

[YukisHeart]

This whole thread is a circle jerk. Pretty much no-one complained about Jones's standing submission attempt. If anyone did, they are a teeny, tiny minority, even among the so-called "haters".

I mean, look at this doofus:

do you people realize they are in a fight? when a fighter throws a kick to the liver they intended to damage said liver and or break some ribs. when they punch someone in the jaw they intend to break that jaw. what could be wrong with trying to dislocate someones arm to win a fight?

Literally no-one in the thread, in the three pages leading to this post, had actually complained about Jones's move. Who were this Shertard's "you people"? They didn't exist. He's having an argument with himself — literally.

Personally, I thought the shoulder crank was ok- so I'll preface with that. I'm not a huge fan of standing subs in general, but they're a part of MMA and an additional weapon fighters should be able to use and watch out for in the clinch. Props to Jones for coming out with something a little different and unexpected.

But the premise of the argument was that submissions should be done in a manner that gives the opponent a chance to tap. Subs that are applied in a manner that causes potentially instant damage, with no chance to give up, are a little unsporting- just my opinion. Same reason eyepokes and low blows are unsporting- they're a cheap way of giving you an unfair advantage.

Yes, we're dealing with a sport where inflicting damage is part of the game- but people need to remember this isn't ACTUALLY a fight- it's a sport. And the aim is to win first, with damage being the byproduct- not the aim. That's what people are confusing here.

When you punch someone, you're aiming to knock them out. But once they're out, continuing to pound on them undefended (ala Hendo/Bisping) is really shitty. That's how that works. When you sub someone, you're aiming to make them submit- hence the name 'submission'. Not break their limb. Only badly applied locks or stubborn opponents should end up with broken limbs.

And please, anyone saying 'well if you don't like watching people hurt each other go watch ballet or w/e'- GTFO. I love MMA as much as anyone, and I'm fully entitled to my opinion on this. If you can't control a sub, you shouldn't go for it- these are people's careers on the line. Yes, brain damage is a risk too- but you can't remove every risk from MMA.

As an aside, you know it's illegal to drop people on their necks from slams, right? I.E, if you can't execute a suplex properly, don't fucking do it. The dangers are certainly more pronounced from that (they might die) but the premise remains the same- these are dangerous manoevers that have repercussions, train yourself to do them correctly.

This guy makes good and interesting points. That said, I've often thought that fairly destructive attacks on the arms might be the way for smaller fighters to deal with Jones. At at least one point in the fight, Jones had his arms (and fingers, naturally) fully extended on Glover's forehead, keeping him at bay.

Could have been leaving himself vulnerable to a few trapping-based Filipino boxing techniques, or even some of the more legitimate standing arm locks from Dumog or (God help me) Aikido.

[YT]UomjRDA8JjQ[/YT]

(Yes, a lot of the material in the above video is just sensitivity drills.)

 

[Prex32]

it was a good strategy to neutralize your opponent early in the fight, but it's a cheap and dirty move imo
the tactic behind it is to injure your opponent and not 'just' to hurt him

 

[MortalWombat]

The interesting question is, would you do something like that during sparring?

Imo no, you go for submissions, strike but most fighters don't try to injure their opponent, I think fights should be the same. That said JBJ looked rediculously good, im glad I had $$ on him getting a dec

You don't crank heel hooks in sparring either. Nor do you gnp them till they're out when you've dropped them.

 

[venivedivici]

I dislike jones, I wanted him to lose.. But I practiced that move on my wife last night. It's bad ass!

 

[PAPERCLIP30]

It's a fight. Do it up

 

[Psychojoe86]

It was unexpected, I don't think most of the people watching at BWW even noticed it.

It's legal, so I have no issue with it. Pretty cool actually.

I was at bww. Everyone cheered in surprise when they saw jones attempt the standing shoulder crank. I was impressed that so many people noticed it.

 

[fearoth]

Legit technique and as Glover said it caught him off guard.

 

[Sam9104]

Nobody whined when aoki did it and broke a guys elbow.

 

[Irenaeus]

Was the point really lost on you or were you just trying to be a smart ass?

It was just a nonsensical statement to me, so I'm grateful that you explained your line of reasoning. I don't see the relevance in this context, however. The vast majority of people on Sherdog, even on the technique subforums, will never have a pro fight. Being "a sparring guy" isn't a valid put down in this crowd, since it's a much better background than the average.