Do people really think the shoulder crank jones did was "CHEAP"?

This is already the core of many fans logic. Just thought I'd go full boner...
Lol. I read "Bonner" at first. Made me think there was some kind of weird rant I didn't know about.
 
The interesting question is, would you do something like that during sparring?

Imo no, you go for submissions, strike but most fighters don't try to injure their opponent, I think fights should be the same. That said JBJ looked rediculously good, im glad I had $$ on him getting a dec
 
I'm done arguing with whiners (aka jones haters) about the move.

It was awesome. Glover didn't complain and even complimented jones.
 
And what chance or warning do you get before the kick or punch hits you in the face that you don't get before someone yanks your elbow the way jones did to glover?
The trick to catching someone in a submission is not giving away that you're going for it, it's the same principal.

Reading, do you know how to do it?
 
nothing wrong with it, it was not unsportsmanlike conduct neither.
 
You can break someones fucking arm with an armbar but dont you dare go for a shoulder crank!
 
JBJ wasn't going for a sub, he was trying to cause an injury, they're mutually exclusive

a standing kimura serves the same purpose, can't tap while standing, but you can verbally. if you don't face resistance, you win via arm break.
 
Lol, there's always at least one.

I have no issues with violence, like at all. I've watched Jones and his broken toe, Silva and his broken leg, and countless people with blood gushing from their faces. Believe me, it's not something that concerns me.

But I do have an ideal of how I like to see fights. If that differs from yours, cool, no worries. When it comes to submissions (as a fighter myself, I use these submissions all the time) I'd be mad pissed if a guy just broke my elbow or shoulder with some sloppy armbar that he made no attempt to lock in, and just cranked with all his might half-assed.

To me, that is straight up bullshit. If I get punched in the face and my orbital broken, that's part of fighting. If my ribs get broken from a kick, again- that's part of it. But I expect to be given a chance before someone snaps my elbow, that's just how I view it.

Will dirty tactics always be present? Of course they will. That doesn't mean I have to like them, however. Have a nice day.

This is what I'm taking from your statements here; You accept getting a broken orbital bone, you accept getting a broken rib, both of which come from strikes with no warning, yet you expect someone to telegraph or hold back a submission attempt to protect you from getting hurt.
The fact at the end of the day is that people fight to win, and if the guy who half assed the arm bar you mentioned above broke your arm, he still won.
Your ideal takes away the competitive nature of the sport, you have to be ruthless to win.
 
This is what I'm taking from your statements here; You accept getting a broken orbital bone, you accept getting a broken rib, both of which come from strikes with no warning, yet you expect someone to telegraph or hold back a submission attempt to protect you from getting hurt.
The fact at the end of the day is that people fight to win, and if the guy who half assed the arm bar you mentioned above broke your arm, he still won.
Your ideal takes away the competitive nature of the sport, you have to be ruthless to win.

So, by that logic, why have rules at all? Why not make it a free-for-all, anything goes?

What's the purpose of having rules in a fight?
 
LMFAO I made a thread about this last night.
You don't get any points for this prediction. The people having problems with it are far, far fewer than those disliking Jones.
 
Dont worry the Jones hater brotherhood needs anything to hate on it.


The Oblique kick started slow then it picked up steam....This shoulder crank will be the same.

Eh, I'm not really sure it will. It's not that big a deal, the lock was legit.

The only thing I would say that I didn't like was that he seemed pleased about popping his elbow- meh, I don't really like that attitude, but it's not a huge deal. Some people need that attitude to bring out their best, but I'd prefer people to not be all excited about breaking someone's bones, because that could just as easily be their career in jeopardy instead. Be happy about the win, not about the injury to your opponent.
 
No, it's not at all, and I can't really see it's debatable.

Furthermore, mostly everybody in those threads was pretty clear that it wasn't.

I'm bitching a lot about his finger-fighting, but this was a really cool submission attempt. People should stop trying to divide this entire forum into two strawmen: the nuthuggers and the haters. It's not a useful, nor accurate distinction. On the whole, we need to adress people's arguments instead of speculating on their motivations.

This
 
So, by that logic, why have rules at all? Why not make it a free-for-all, anything goes?

What's the purpose of having rules in a fight?

Jon Jones didn't break the rules, he was ruthless but acted as he was entitled to in order to win the fight, you've changed the subject all of a sudden.
 
Sure thing, but you can only tap if you have a chance to.

I'm not talking about that- if an opponent is caught in an armbar but doesn't tap (see Tate/Rousey 1) then crank that shit and break the arm. That's your opponents fault. If you've got them in a choke and they don't tap (see Machida/Jones), then crank until they go limp. That's how it works.

But when you're in an uncontrolled sub, which applies sudden and potentially bonebreaking pressure with no warning, that's just dangerous. Your opponent has no pain up until the bone is broken or joint is dislocated- and that's just not good.

Giving your opponent that chance to stop their limb being broken is the key point to whether a sub is 'sporting' or not, IMO.


If you want to be effective, you don't put a submission on someone and gradually ease into it to give them every opportunity to tap without suffering an injury except in training. In an actual fight, a sudden application is almost necessary or the guy will get out. That goes for all submissions, including arm bars, etc. The thing about this particular attack is that it isn't a familiar technique that fighters are training for so they don't yet know to take steps to avoid it and don't know when their limb is in danger. That will change in the near future, I imagine.

But anyway, just because a technique seems to you to have the potential to injure doesn't mean it is wrong or unsporting at all. A powerful elbow strike has a high potential to cut and break orbitals as Jones and many other fighters have done enough times and there is no ability to "tap" before the damage is done. It is a sudden application of force. That's its nature and is necessary for it to be effective. It doesn't make it "unsporting."

The idea of a guy being able to tap out to a submission is a luxury you just can't afford them in all scenarios. In a fight, sometimes you are going to take damage unless you can always anticipate your opponent's moves and avoid or prevent them.
 
This is what I'm taking from your statements here; You accept getting a broken orbital bone, you accept getting a broken rib, both of which come from strikes with no warning, yet you expect someone to telegraph or hold back a submission attempt to protect you from getting hurt.
The fact at the end of the day is that people fight to win, and if the guy who half assed the arm bar you mentioned above broke your arm, he still won.
Your ideal takes away the competitive nature of the sport, you have to be ruthless to win.

Why, exactly?

I think we just have different ideas of what ruthless actually means. To me, it means that if someone is unwilling to tap, you have to be willing to go all the way and break the arm. If you don't even give them a chance to tap, then you're being unsporting, not ruthless.

All those people that lock up armbars- there is plenty of time given to tap. If you've trained, you know full well when an armbar is locked in, and you learn to tap and avoid further injury. But if someone half-asses it, and just cranks blindly- that's dangerous.

Like someone else said earlier, it's like wristlocks or fingerlocks- those suck, because they're on in a flash and you rarely get time to tap. They just straight up break. Those kind of holds are shitty in MMA because you get put on the shelf for a seriously long time, and sometimes you never fully recover. Personally speaking, I broke a minor bone in my hand some ten years ago- I actually never fully recovered my grip strength in that hand. I occasionally lose grip in gi training because of that injury.

It's a case of avoidable injuries (not being a dick with subs) vs unavoidable injuries (jaw/leg/hand/rib injuries as a result of striking).

If you think people should actually be ruthless, then watching bare-knuckle fights should be more appropriate. MMA has evolved into a sport where techniques are more important than trying to fuck someone's career up.

This shouldn't even really be a discussion, since most people in combat sports actually understand that distinction- it's something you learn in any submission based grappling art very, very early on.
 
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