Do people really think the shoulder crank jones did was "CHEAP"?

I ever saw JBJ punch Glover in the face right in front of the Ref ...Cheap shot , only gentle take down should be allowed in MMA.
 
do you people realize they are in a fight? when a fighter throws a kick to the liver they intended to damage said liver and or break some ribs. when they punch someone in the jaw they intend to break that jaw. what could be wrong with trying to dislocate someones arm to win a fight?
 
HIMBOB said:
Its the fight equiv of left Vs right, it helps nothing.
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Yeah, most defnitely. Everybody is claiming that themselves aren't defined by their party, while simultaneously trying to reduce opponents to unthinking supporters for the other side. Arguing against a homogenous mass instead of the actual guys you're talking to, is just another kind of strawman, and questioning their motivations instead of adressing their arguments is only a way to avoid the actual issue.

Edit: Note that noe one in this thread is actually claiming it was cheap in any way so far.
 
Irenaeus said:
Yeah, most defnitely. Everybody is claiming that themselves aren't defined by their party, while simultaneously trying to reduce opponents to unthinking supporters for the other side. Arguing against a homogenous mass instead of the actual guys you're talking to, is just another kind of strawman, and questioning their motivations instead of adressing their arguments is only a way to avoid the actual issue.

Edit: Note that noe one in this thread is actually claiming it was cheap in any way so far.
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This is actually an extremely relevant point most would do well to remember.

It won't happen, but it would sure be nice. It really sucks that if you agree with one point raised, you automatically fall under the 'nuthugger/hater' tag, regardless of your actual feelings and opinions.

It's possible to admire Jones as an athlete and fighter, and also think that the shit he pulls like eyepokes are stupidly dirty. It's possible to respect Ronda as a competitor and dislike her personality. It's possible to think Anderson is great and also think his competition wasn't as good as it could have been.

But unfortunately, everything is black or white- you're a fan or you're not. No inbetween arguments.
 
DysDave said:
But the premise of the argument was that submissions should be done in a manner that gives the opponent a chance to tap. Subs that are applied in a manner that causes potentially instant damage, with no chance to give up, are a little unsporting- just my opinion. Same reason eyepokes and low blows are unsporting- they're a cheap way of giving you an unfair advantage.

Yes, we're dealing with a sport where inflicting damage is part of the game- but people need to remember this isn't ACTUALLY a fight- it's a sport. And the aim is to win first, with damage being the byproduct- not the aim. That's what people are confusing here.

When you punch someone, you're aiming to knock them out. But once they're out, continuing to pound on them undefended (ala Hendo/Bisping) is really shitty. That's how that works. When you sub someone, you're aiming to make them submit- hence the name 'submission'. Not break their limb. Only badly applied locks or stubborn opponents should end up with broken limb
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Submission is the admission of defeat. This is why people tap to strikes. Why Bob Sapp taps to being mounted.

The idea of any hold IS to break a limb or to make the opponent pass out. Just most fighters have the sense to tap out before it happens. Glover could have tapped the second Jones grabbed him like that. He didn't, and Jones cranked it. Glover injured his shoulder as a result. If he had tapped and Jones cranked it, as seen multiple times by Paul Harris, then yes there would be a problem.
 
No.

The only thing that bothers me about his technique is the constant eye poking.
 
Gorkle said:
Submission is the admission of defeat. This is why people tap to strikes. Why Bob Sapp taps to being mounted.

The idea of any hold IS to break a limb or to make the opponent pass out. Just most fighters have the sense to tap out before it happens. Glover could have tapped the second Jones grabbed him like that. He didn't, and Jones cranked it. Glover injured his shoulder as a result. If he had tapped and Jones cranked it, as seen multiple times by Paul Harris, then yes there would be a problem.
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Sure thing, but you can only tap if you have a chance to.

I'm not talking about that- if an opponent is caught in an armbar but doesn't tap (see Tate/Rousey 1) then crank that shit and break the arm. That's your opponents fault. If you've got them in a choke and they don't tap (see Machida/Jones), then crank until they go limp. That's how it works.

But when you're in an uncontrolled sub, which applies sudden and potentially bonebreaking pressure with no warning, that's just dangerous. Your opponent has no pain up until the bone is broken or joint is dislocated- and that's just not good.

Giving your opponent that chance to stop their limb being broken is the key point to whether a sub is 'sporting' or not, IMO.
 
I thought it was dangerous and i liked it, it shows a willingness to win the fight by any means, even at the expense of your opponent. Also i like jon's creativity in applying what may work at the time, something the roster lacks, and i don't even like jon as a personality, but as a fighter he is champ for a reason.
 
HerpDerp said:
I've never seen anyone do that except Aoki in a gif. Was cool as fuck and there was nothing cheap about it, and you could see from Glover's face that it hurt.

By the way, a shoulder crank? I thought Jones was hyperextending the elbow by clasping his hands together with the overhook and then cranking the elbow straight upwards. Can someone elaborate on how it was actually a shoulder crank?

Jones-Teixeira+Shoulder+Wrench.gif
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It's a standing Mir lock, lol. Actually looks like it could've been a standing armbar if he had straightened the elbow.
 
Very smart. Nothing wrong. Mir did the same type of thing.
 
DysDave said:
Sure thing, but you can only tap if you have a chance to.

I'm not talking about that- if an opponent is caught in an armbar but doesn't tap (see Tate/Rousey 1) then crank that shit and break the arm. That's your opponents fault. If you've got them in a choke and they don't tap (see Machida/Jones), then crank until they go limp. That's how it works.

But when you're in an uncontrolled sub, which applies sudden and potentially bonebreaking pressure with no warning, that's just dangerous. Your opponent has no pain up until the bone is broken or joint is dislocated- and that's just not good.

Giving your opponent that chance to stop their limb being broken is the key point to whether a sub is 'sporting' or not, IMO.
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from trying what is the difference from trying to break someones jaw or injure their liver with a kick or breaking someones ribs with a knee?
 
I think people did not like it as he just grabbed it and cracked hard without holding the pressure to make it in to an actual submission lock. If he used it as a submission hold instead of just cranking it, then it would not look/sound as bad.

Personally I thought it was fine but I can understand why people think he was just trying to injure Glover instead of using it to submit Glover.
 
The only ppl who might have a problem with it are jones haters or ppl who have no idea how to fight. Im not a jones fan by any means but i saw no problem with it. Go watch a highschool or college wrestling match and you see that move use quite regularly. Usually to set up a takedown but if you put enough torque on it it can be used to dislocate someones elbow or shoulder.
 
thatone said:
from trying what is the difference from trying to break someones jaw or injure their liver with a kick or breaking someones ribs with a knee?
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When you get in the octagon, you know there is a danger that shit's gonna happen that's gonna hurt. That's just part of it. What you CAN do, is try to minimise certain risks that are unnecessary.

Kicks and punches are pretty hard to minimise the damage. Ribs are going to get broken, jaws will get broken, and it's going to be painful. But there's just no way round it. But what they HAVE done, is made headbutts illegal. Made 12-6 elbows illegal. Made soccer kicks to downed opponents, low blows, eyepokes illegal.

Because it is a SPORT first, and that means trying to take as many steps to make sure your fighters are safe and can fight for as long as possible. That's why the fight is stopped the second an opponent goes out for even a second- because potential concussions are no joke.

Uncontrolled subs, IMO, are one of those things that are just down to the fighter. It's pretty hard to police, and falls into that horrible grey area similar to inside leg kicks- you don't know if a guy intentionally went for the kick to hit a low blow, or it was accidental. But if you go for a sub intending to damage your opponent without giving them a way of giving up- that's just low, and no different to aiming a leg kick with the intention of cracking the nuts along with it. Unsporting, but not illegal.
 
Perfectly legal, perfectly fine, perfectly executed.

I don't think the majority of people are against it anyways.
 
fortysixtwo said:
I think people did not like it as he just grabbed it and cracked hard without holding the pressure to make it in to an actual submission lock. If he used it as a submission hold instead of just cranking it, then it would not look/sound as bad.

Personally I thought it was fine but I can understand why people think he was just trying to injure Glover instead of using it to submit Glover.
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Except there is virtually no difference in this instance. In all of this philosophy about the spirit of submissions people are ignoring technical submissions.

Rendering a fighter unable to compete through a hold is a perfectly legitimate means of victory.
 
HerpDerp said:
I've never seen anyone do that except Aoki in a gif. Was cool as fuck and there was nothing cheap about it, and you could see from Glover's face that it hurt.

By the way, a shoulder crank? I thought Jones was hyperextending the elbow by clasping his hands together with the overhook and then cranking the elbow straight upwards. Can someone elaborate on how it was actually a shoulder crank?

Jones-Teixeira+Shoulder+Wrench.gif
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If he stepped over for a throw like a tai otoshi in Judo, he'd have taken his arm home.

Also It's like a standing Mir lock, nothing at all wrong with it
Nice Gif, here's what has come to be known as the Mir lock as i mentioned
frankfuckinmirzn9_medium.gif
 
Everything Jones does is cheap because he wins. Now if he would just lose for once, I'd be a fan. But dammit he keeps winning and it makes me so angry!

Pouting-Obama.jpg
 
I thought the shouldercrank was fucking awesome. I saw a guy submit to it once, can't remember which fight though. I think it's an underrated move.

The only thing Jones did that was dirty was the eyegouging - some things never change.
 
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