Divine Command vs morality; they are not compatible.

[Denter]

We're talking about a book that is allegedly divine in nature. If the book at face value is not a reliable, being that it leads different people to wildly different conclusions, what value is it? How can anyone trust it as a path to truth?

I wanted to address each of your paragraphs individually, but my work day is over and I'm outta here. I appreciate your reply all the same.

What makes you think different people are capable of reliably reaching the truth?

People aren't equal, and there are people that can fuck up interpreting an Ikea assembly manual.

 

[jmag]

If you're conceding God is ultimately a dictator in Heaven, why do you as a Marine respect that ? Do not Marines care about fighting for freedom and free will of people to be happy ?

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Yeah, test it against your experience and modern personality psychology, and maybe Darwinian explanations too. People don't really live in a world of things, in the way its measured by science -measured, mutually agreeable objects. We live primarily in a world of meaning, and our ancestors especially did since they had not perfected the scientific method yet. Meaning is merely that which has implication for action. Since that's how people lived (and still do, although many are blind to it), their texts are more concerned with using abstract language about how and why to act, rather than to describe what is, because meaning is more important than objects.

So, for example, in genesis, knowledge is represented by a snake and an apple- and there is good evidence that the reason human beings have as good of eyesight as we do because we evolved precisely to watch out for snakes and to judge the ripeness of fruit. Or the psychological idea of Cain killing Abel due to resentment, and that his descendents were the first men to "fashion weapons of war".

There are many other layers of consilience in that text, but one thing they were not trying to do was perform primitive science. Biblical literalists are simpleminded if they are believers or atheists, its a idiots tango.

Omg guys Jordan Peterson has been posting here THIS WHOLE TIME.

 

[Deleted member 159002]

I'm less concerned with how you label yourself and more concerned with how you have come to the conclusion that god's nature is kind, patient, and rejoices in truth.

Because I am sinner, and yet here I stand. When we creatures sin, we are rebelling against the very ground of our existence. The fact that God hasn't just zorched me, or you, or any other sinner is evidence that God is kind and patient. The fact that God -- a perfectly just Being -- submitted to torturers and murderers for the sake of us unjust beings is the greatest kindness imaginable. We know God rejoices in truth because He communicates with us via the Holy Spirit.

The only reliable source we have available to us to determine god's nature is the bible. Unless you can point to another universally accepted method of determining gods nature, aside from personal revelation of course.

That's not true. We have the ability to reason.

If it's not literal or true, why believe it?

Much of the Bible is true in the literal sense, including miracles, the greatest of which was Christ's resurrection.

You're asking me on what basis would I say it's wrong to drown every living human on the planet. How many infants do you suspect drowned in this flood? I can't think of any basis this could be viewed as anything other than murder.

Yes, that's what I'm asking you. Is ethics just an assortment of automatic response we've developed through evolution? Is it merely a facade for our own gratification?

Genesis lists an order of creation. It is talking about the physical nature of the reality we are in, and it is wrong.

Right, it is wrong in the literal sense on physical matters, not metaphysical truths, which can be deduced; Genesis reveals that the Independent Fact is sentient and that He created everything. We learn that God is not just some being who emerged from nature, or who has eternally co-existed with nature, or is nature.

 

[Pwent]

How do you determine what is and isn't moral without religion

Without religion you have moral relativism, and anything can be moral or amoral depending on what day it is

 

[Denter]

Omg guys Jordan Peterson has been posting here THIS WHOLE TIME.

He's great. I've been reading maps of meaning, if you can tell.

But seriously that isn't a new idea.

For example, Ibn Arabi was giving symbolic and psychological explanation of the Koranic prophets 800 years ago. There has always been esoteric and exoteric understanding.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

He's great. I've been reading maps of meaning, if you can tell.

But seriously that isn't a new idea.

I'm reading it too. Went through the course already, but actually thinking I might prefer the personality one.

The guy is abundantly interesting.

 

[Denter]

I'm reading it too. Went through the course already, but actually thinking I might prefer the personality one.

The guy is abundantly interesting.

He inspired me to re read Nietzsche too lol

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

He inspired me to re read Nietzsche too lol

I re-opened a couple of Jung's books I had sitting around too Hell if I'm reading Solzhenitsyn though.

 

[dontsnitch]

Was waiting for you to post in here lol. Was surprised @ehtheist went with Kierkegaard instead of Plato with her recommendation.

Sort of a side tangent but I was reading an article the other day that applied Euthyphro's dilemma to science as a source of moral values, which was kind of cool.

Haven't had time to think much more about it though.

In order to debate Christian theology and philosophy, you must do so with someone who is charitable, or the entire exercise is useless.

The last time I debated Euthypthro in here, whoever it was that was discussing it with me kept accusing me of begging the question when I would, for the sake of the debate, assume that God exists. I'm not especially keen on throwing in my lot with such people and how someone frames the question is often all the evidence you need to see it would be a useless endeavor.

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

In order to debate Christian theology and philosophy, you must do so with someone who is charitable, or the entire exercise is useless.

The last time I debated Euthypthro in here, whoever it was that was discussing it with me kept accusing me of begging the question when I would, for the sake of the debate, assume that God exists. I'm not especially keen on throwing in my lot with such people and how someone frames the question is often all the evidence you need to see it would be a useless endeavor.

Yea even in this thread I think people are being too quick to jump to the argument they think they can win rather than acknowledging the current one.

If I remember correctly our point of contention on the subject became something like: if God demonstrates a non-arbitrary goodness by acting in accordance with his (good) nature, then how do we know his nature? @sabretruth's solution to that is bundled rather nicely, even to a non-believer like myself.

Maybe I'm just getting tired with age.

 

[luckyshot]

A little bit of religion is a great thing for an individual or a society. A lot of religion is a poison to an individual or a society.

If all the moderate, tolerant, honest sincere folks of every religion got together and had a country, it would be a virtual utopia.

If all the fundamentalists of every religion got together and had a country, they'd have each other covered with gasoline by sun down... and I'd volunteer to strike the match.

 

[Pixelated Porn]

In the Bible you have the Prophets doing some horrific things to people because God ordered them

Such as? Please give one example. From the bible. Go for it.

And if you ask most christians why rape is wrong the first answer is not going to be because God said so. You have no proof of your claims that christians would all say that.

 

[7437]

Jesus would never say that.

"And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else." James 1:13

There is only one thing God is *incapable* of doing and that's sinning. The Perfect never does anything less then what His Standard is, Perfection.

Hence why sin is described as *missing the mark* i.e less then perfection.

Didnt god tempt Abraham into butchering infants for no reason?

Didnt god kill a bunch of Job's family because he was bored and fucking with Job?

Sure seems like he does a lot of things that are wrong, and tempts others to do the same.

 

[7437]

Such as? Please give one example. From the bible. Go for it.

And if you ask most christians why rape is wrong the first answer is not going to be because God said so. You have no proof of your claims that christians would all say that.

Exodus 30:28-28

32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

 

[Pixelated Porn]

Exodus 30:28-28

Right, nowhere did I say there is not violence. These people were idolators who would not repent though given the chance. This is at a time when the israelites were being freed from slavery in egypt and being taken to the promise land. These were jews that did shit that God forbade.

Just like we go to war when someone does something we forbid.

 

[7437]

Right, nowhere did I say there is not violence. These people were idolators who would not repent though given the chance. This is at a time when the israelites were being freed from slavery in egypt and being taken to the promise land. These were jews that did shit that God forbade.

Just like we go to war when someone does something we forbid.

You asked for examples of god ordering people to do horrific shit. You got it, after insisting it didnt exist.

God murdered Jobs family...... for no reason.

If god exists, he is a disgusting psycho.

 

[Seano]

If you ask a Christian why stealing or homosexuality is wrong, they will say "The Bible says so."

I think thats an oversimplification. The average christian doesn't do stuff just because "the bible says so." The bible says all sorts of weird shit and Christians don't do all of it.

 

[Seano]

You asked for examples of god ordering people to do horrific shit. You got it, after insisting it didnt exist.

God murdered Jobs family...... for no reason.

If god exists, he is a disgusting psycho.

Its clearly a fable with a lesson in keeping faith and not abandoning your morals in the face of horrible events. I personally don't think the bible was ever really intended to be a history of actual events.

 

[7437]

Its clearly a fable with a lesson in keeping faith and not abandoning your morals in the face of horrible events. I personally don't think the bible was ever really intended to be a history of actual events.

I would agree that it is a fable, because god isnt real.

I dont get how people can justify the god of the bible as being anything other than a monster though. Its like reading a harry potter book from the perspective of voldemort and insisting he is the good guy, because he is the protagonist.