Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 9] - BJJ during the Vale Tudo Era...

Discussion in 'Worldwide MMA Discussion' started by gono btw, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Today :

    MYTH: BJJ was already a dominant Martial Art prior to UFC 1, in Brazil, during the Vale Tudo Era..

    In other words: Nobody knew how to deal with BJJ prior to the 1st UFC events...

    The truth is that, btw 1940s & 1980s, BJJ was not that dominant in Brazil...

    Euclydes Pereira [Luta Livre/Karate/Boxe/Capoeira] & Ivan Gomes [Luta Livre/Judo]
    can be both considered the Gracies´ nemeses.

    Euclydes Pereira :

    - 6 fights with Waldemar Santana [adopted by the Gracies]:
    5 victories & 1 draw

    - 1 fight with Carlson Gracie :
    1 victory


    Ivan Gomes :

    - 1 fight with Waldemar Santana:
    1 victory

    - 1 fight with Carlson Gracie:
    1 draw


    Luta Livre dudes like Ivan Gomes and Euclydes Pereira were dominating them.

    In 1988, Eugenio Tadeu challenged Royler behind closed doors, and it was a competiive bout,a draw...there was a weight difference, indeed.. I would say Eugenio was a lil bit more dominant...


    Then u have the original famous challenge Luta Livre vs BJJ 1984: (with a Gracie student Referee)

    Eugenio Tadeu destroyed Renan Pitanguy [BJJ]
    Inácio Aragão [BJJ] defeated Bruce Lucio (RNC)
    Draw btw Ruas and Pinduka [BJJ]... You can watch the fight and try to decide who won... Both claimed victory...(Pinduka said under Modern Rules, he would have won, while Ruas claimed that he inflicted more damage from the bottom)
    Marcelo Behring [BJJ] destroyed Flavio Molina (who was injured b4 the fight, knee)

    The 2nd challenge was more lopsided though, I agree ...

    Obs> the fight btw Eugenio and Wallid was controversial though:
    BJJ students at ringside didnt let Eugenio go back to the ring, according to Eugenio.(at that time, crowds were very pro-Gracies and even the ref was more often than not a GJJ student)

    [Modern] Fights - BJJ vs Luta Livre Rivalry:











    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLEBvOweFi8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o0AmeFEGzg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4QpA3Vniyw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsQ0HtXTxbI
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  2. The Reed

    The Reed Red Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7,903
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Gives me more respect for Royce.
    The wrong BJJ guy would have lost in the early UFC's.
     
    Kinosis and gono btw like this.
  3. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Im a Hoyce fan too, and it´s true, Hoyler & Henzo wouldnt have had that kind of success in the early ones...

    Hespect.
     
    Rozko, Kinosis and The Reed like this.
  4. Emporio Alnino

    Emporio Alnino only the results!

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    9,757
    Likes Received:
    4,136
    Location:
    he who bears light exists in the deepest shadow
    love these threads dude. <RomeroSalute>
     
    Stoic1 and gono btw like this.
  5. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Isaac Hayes beer.gif
     
    Emporio Alnino likes this.
  6. InfinityLens

    InfinityLens Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    1,642
    There was an organized MMA scene before Pancrase 1 and we know so little about it. There was stuff in the USA, Japan, and Brazil.

    Wish someone would document it all.
     
    A.S. Deep and gono btw like this.
  7. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    The truth is that the Vale Tudo scene was slowly re-starting in the 1970s...
    After the burst in the 1950s-60s, it suffered a severe crisis in the 1970s.

    That´s when they managed to promote the BJJ vs Karate challenge, with Rolls vs Paulo do Karate, among other fights...

    Then, the scene grew up till the Rickson vs Rei Zulu fights, and then the BJJ vs Luta Livre Challenge, in the early 1980s.

    But technically, it was still Black Belts vs Black Belts in streetfights, since the events were pretty scare.
     
  8. Mike K.O

    Mike K.O Shogun Rua is my hero

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2018
    Messages:
    1,830
    Likes Received:
    3,897
    It's not really about the style, but more about the fighter. Gracies did some shady shit back in the day, which makes some of those challenges a bit suspect to me.
    Btw, keep these threads comin
    They're great
     
    gono btw likes this.
  9. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Some of these challenges were ridiculous (Hickson vs Duarte on the beach...), some were legit (Hoyler vs Tadeu / BJJ vs Luta Livre), and some were suspect (Hickson vs Rei Zulu > Special Rules on the ground / Helio Gracie vs. Masahiko Kimura fight in 1951:at that time they insisted on using soft mats to avoid injuries related to judo throws during the fight.)


    chow2.gif
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    UWanaPlayDaGame and Mike K.O like this.
  10. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Messages:
    10,651
    Likes Received:
    7,469
    Location:
    USA!USA!USA!
    Thank you, TS!

    I love watching the old stuff. Back when headbutts and no stand ups made it savage.
     
    gono btw likes this.
  11. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Dear @Agnawedbone

    You said these Decons threads were all pure BS, please expose them, askin´ for the 4th time:

    scared.gif

    quit runnin.gif
     
  12. InfinityLens

    InfinityLens Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    1,642
    So how did BJJ become dominant? Where the Gracies just rich and marketed themselves better?
     
  13. Nueman43

    Nueman43 Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    94
    I think their marketing certainly helped a lot. I think the UFC drove a lot of increase as well. But like most boons, the UFC gave and took away. The BJJ became less of a Gracie controlled institution, and morphed into a sport with several sub-styles.
     
  14. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    Their rivals (Euclydes Pereira and Ivan Gomes) got old, and the new Luta Livre generation was not as good on the ground. they were more focussed on MT. That´s when it shifted in the 1980s.
     
  15. seau45

    seau45 Proceed in my direction brosef

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,541
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Colorado
    I think Luta Livre and GJJ were very close in terms of effectiveness, which is why you saw individual standouts that could defeat their GJJ or LL rivals. The Gracies certainly marketed it better and seemed to have more practitioners, and that only grew as LL declined in popularity. That being said, both LL and GJJ were miles ahead of any TMA we were doing in America at the time, no one had combined wrestling and boxing or worked on submissions nearly as much. I suspect the Gracies thought challenge matches here in the US were a breeze compared to back home!
     
    gono btw likes this.
  16. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    The Luta Livre school had no access to politicians, media and the middle/upper class ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
    manboy<3 and seau45 like this.
  17. InfinityLens

    InfinityLens Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    1,642
    If someone can get some LL people they can play on this in a rich v poor type storyline.
     
  18. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    7,215
    Likes Received:
    10,189
    This rivalry is history now...
     
  19. carlos cadona

    carlos cadona Opinions subject to change

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,386
    Likes Received:
    1,822
    The Gracie's also had a tendency to avoid fights they weren't 100% sure they could win, most famously how Rickson refused to fight Bas Rutten, Sakuraba, and Marco Ruas.
     
  20. InfinityLens

    InfinityLens Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2015
    Messages:
    5,380
    Likes Received:
    1,642
    Yeah but there is always someone willing to dig stuff up from yesteryear if they think it can sell.
     

Share This Page