Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 8] - MMA 'Cans', The Unsung Heroes...

[HaulParris]

MMA isn’t as bad as boxing in terms of how a record is compiled and perceived, but it still has its problems.

What I mean is that in boxing, a typical fighter will have many amateur fights, turn pro and get slowly built-up (against increasingly tough but beatable opponents), and then, with a 20-0 record, fight for one of the hundred or so belts that’s up for grabs.

If and when a boxer is in trouble in a fight, his corner or the ref is more likely to stop the fight early, to save the fighter from himself. If he loses a fight, he’ll get 1-2 rebound fights to build himself back up. If and when he loses a few fights, and has a 24-3 record, he’s considered washed up and the audience /pundits /promoters move on.

In MMA, where there isn’t a well-develooed amateur circuit, many fighters turn pro with little or no amateur experience. While many do have the chance to be brought along slowly on the regional scene, far too often they have to take what they can get - meaning short-notice fights, including a call-up to the big leagues.

Before long, the young MMA fighters are thrust into a sport where there is a culture of no rebound fights, no “throwing in the towel”, and where negotiating for a better deal / more favorable match-up is seen as cowardly rather than strategic. Fans can overlook a big number of losses as long as a fighter seems willing to fight anyone / anywhere - like Matt Brown, Donald Cerrone, etc.

However, many of the more casual fans will overlook the substance of a career and focus only on the results. I’m not saying that everyone should watch every fight out there, but if you only go by results, then you would think Henderson-Shogun was just another fight.

The point of my (very long) post is that I agree with the OP - while results are a very real metric by which to measure a career, they only tell a part of the story. To dismiss the whole story is as disrespectful as calling a fighter a “can” - it’s lazy, mindless, and dishonorable.

 

[gono btw]

MMA isn’t as bad as boxing in terms of how a record is compiled and perceived, but it still has its problems.

What I mean is that in boxing, a typical fighter will have many amateur fights, turn pro and get slowly built-up (against increasingly tough but beatable opponents), and then, with a 20-0 record, fight for one of the hundred or so belts that’s up for grabs.

If and when a boxer is in trouble in a fight, his corner or the ref is more likely to stop the fight early, to save the fighter from himself. If he loses a fight, he’ll get 1-2 rebound fights to build himself back up. If and when he loses a few fights, and has a 24-3 record, he’s considered washed up and the audience /pundits /promoters move on.

In MMA, where there isn’t a well-develooed amateur circuit, many fighters turn pro with little or no amateur experience. While many do have the chance to be brought along slowly on the regional scene, far too often they have to take what they can get - meaning short-notice fights, including a call-up to the big leagues.

Before long, the young MMA fighters are thrust into a sport where there is a culture of no rebound fights, no “throwing in the towel”, and where negotiating for a better deal / more favorable match-up is seen as cowardly rather than strategic. Fans can overlook a big number of losses as long as a fighter seems willing to fight anyone / anywhere - like Matt Brown, Donald Cerrone, etc.

However, many of the more casual fans will overlook the substance of a career and focus only on the results. I’m not saying that everyone should watch every fight out there, but if you only go by results, then you would think Henderson-Shogun was just another fight.

The point of my (very long) post is that I agree with the OP - while results are a very real metric by which to measure a career, they only tell a part of the story. To dismiss the whole story is as disrespectful as calling a fighter a “can” - it’s lazy, mindless, and dishonorable.

Im gettin´tired of defendin´ Takase or Chonan in the Heavies... Bums there like to bash´em jus´ to have an angle of attack against Spider for instance....

 

[RDUBYA]

Today :

MMA 'Cans' - The Unsung Heroes...

Sadly, some fans seem obsessed with the W/L record, and are quick to dismiss a fighter´s career based solely on that.

Sequences during a fight are much more interesting imo, not the overall fight itself.
What Im looking forward to is the fighter´s evolution & the slick transitions he might showcase during
the fight.

Assessing a fighter´s career is generally something uneasy, especially when it comes to ol´school
fighters.
It requires some deep research about the fights, the patience to watch them, and the will
to learn about their context.

Historically, someone like Igor has always had a suspicious look from the fans
when it comes to assessing the 1st part of his career, in the Russian NHB circuit...

His opponents are generally dismissed as one-dimensional (even though some had a sambo background)
or literally 'un-trained' (even with a potential extensive army career)

Valery Pliev, for instance, who finished his career with an 'average' 8-6 record... was pretty game in the 1st part of his fight vs Igor:




Another unsung hero: Jung Bu Kyung, who finished his career with a 0-4 record...
What an impressive performance in his rookie fight vs Aoki, almost armbarring him and pulling the upset
(while being clearly undersized):



Finally, Magomed Magomedov, very game in his fight vs Khabib (arguably won that fight imo)...
Such an interesting skill set...




Some people around here call a fighter "can" when they dont even know him and his career,
they jus´read his wiki record.

For instance, they like to use this argument to attack a potential ATG, like Spider vs Takase or Chonan [LWs who had to fight @ openweight against much bigger opponents.back in the days... see poor Takase vs Horn...]
The finish over Spider was a slick, very smooth transition from a straight armbar to a triangle choke.
Definitely not something a "can" or a "journeyman" would be able to do.

Guys like Chonan,Takase,Shoji etc... were good,tough fighters.

Not GOATs, not potential champs...

But good fighters nonetheless...


Hespect.

Guys that were once considered the best in the world or close to it are now considered overrated or cans by people that didn't watch them in their time. Makes me want to go full Mark Coleman on people.

Great threads by the way @gono btw

 

[gono btw]

Guys that were once considered the best in the world or close to it are now considered overrated or cans by people that didn't watch them in their time. Makes me want to go full Mark Coleman on people.

Great threads by the way @gono btw

Ah, the Heavies are full of these bums...

 

[InfinityLens]

If I want to get a picture of a fighters career from a set of #'s I always look at their ranking history (on Fight Matrix). Still doesn't tell the whole story but its better than their record imo.

 

[gono btw]

If I want to get a picture of a fighters career from a set of #'s I always look at their ranking history (on Fight Matrix). Still doesn't tell the whole story but its better than their record imo.

P4P they have Couture above Big Nog... Not really serious...

 

[Aerosol]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

Shoji and Yvel were not cans

 

[loyalyolayal]

While I don't really consider a can, the mishandling of Nastula's mma career makes me sad.

 

[InfinityLens]

P4P they have Couture above Big Nog... Not really serious...

Not perfect but better than record, think how far down Mark Hunt would be if you only looked at record.

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

Other people have already rightfully called you out for calling Yvel a "can", but a few other names on your list are even worse.

John Alessio was a good fighter for that time whose career had some unfortunate breaks. He first debuted in the UFC at the age of just 20, challenging Pat Miletich for the welterweight championship.

He was a decent wrestler, had solid ground and submission skills, and could kickbox for that era, although he lacked power.

At the age of 26, he was the victim of low-key one of the worst decisions in UFC history, against Diego Sanchez, who was a big deal in 2006. After easily and clearly winning the first two rounds against Sanchez, who repeatedly had his takedowns stuffed and was beaten standing, the judges still gave Sanchez a unanimous decision.

He beat a slew of solid guys and PRIDE/UFC vets, like Luiz Firmino, Eric Wisely, War Machine, Luigi Fioravanti, Gideon Ray, Pete Spratt, Eiji Mitusoaka, Chris Brennan, etc.

Akira Shoji? He was easily a level above the typical PRIDE Japanese can, with legitimate wrestling and judo skills, a solid submission and ground game, and the occasional right hand.

Despite being massively undersized against most of his Western opponents, he often gave them hard fights, had them hurt or in trouble (knocking down and seriously pounding Henderson, for instance), and beat some respectable names, like knocking out Wallid Ismail, decisioning Ebenezer Fontes Braga and Alex Stiebling, and a somewhat controversial victory over Mezger.

When Shoji fought a TRUE can, like Herman Renting or John Renken, he submitted them in the first round.

I could go on and on.

 

[Necrocrawler]

Other people have already rightfully called you out for calling Yvel a "can", but a few other names on your list are even worse.

John Alessio was a good fighter for that time whose career had some unfortunate breaks. He first debuted in the UFC at the age of just 20, challenging Pat Miletich for the welterweight championship.

He was a decent wrestler, had solid ground and submission skills, and could kickbox for that era, although he lacked power.

At the age of 26, he was the victim of low-key one of the worst decisions in UFC history, against Diego Sanchez, who was a big deal in 2006. After easily and clearly winning the first two rounds against Sanchez, who repeatedly had his takedowns stuffed and was beaten standing, the judges still gave Sanchez a unanimous decision.

He beat a slew of solid guys and PRIDE/UFC vets, like Luiz Firmino, Eric Wisely, War Machine, Luigi Fioravanti, Gideon Ray, Pete Spratt, Eiji Mitusoaka, Chris Brennan, etc.

Akira Shoji? He was easily a level above the typical PRIDE Japanese can, with legitimate wrestling and judo skills, a solid submission and ground game, and the occasional right hand.

Despite being massively undersized against most of his Western opponents, he often gave them hard fights, had them hurt or in trouble (knocking down and seriously pounding Henderson, for instance), and beat some respectable names, like knocking out Wallid Ismail, decisioning Ebenezer Fontes Braga and Alex Stiebling, and a somewhat controversial victory over Mezger.

When Shoji fought a TRUE can, like Herman Renting or John Renken, he submitted them in the first round.

I could go on and on.

Exactly

Shoji definitely wasn't a can. He was a good fighter at his Pride Days. Against regular competition, he won. Most of his losses came to "big names" like Coleman, Hendo and Jeremy Horn.

This concept of can is hard to define. You get guys like Julio Cesar Neves, whose cartel is impressive... But at what cost?

To end my point... Well... I believe Pride tried hard to get Hype with fighters from other Sports. I believe most of them didnt adapt themselves to the sport and the results were harsh. By saying that we get some names to do a quick analysis:

Yoshiaki Yatsu: Dude had legit Wrestling Credentials. What was the problem? Debuted at age 44.
Yuhi Sano: A fighter with pro wrestling background. Got subbed by bjj fighters. Outstriked by Strikers. Basically could not adapt.

For the last, we have Sentoryu. Some years ago, someone posted the link of the Pride Secret Files book, which ive read. There, basically said that Pride had this dream of creating a Superstar Fighter with Sumo background. Sentoryu ,who was also a response to K1's aquisition of Akebono, was probably the most promised since at the time, being considered "made for MMA" due to his muscle build and also was developing his striking skills at the time. Not only that, but he also managed to win his second bout in less than 30 seconds which hyped him even more. The results after that are... Well... the reason im talking about him in a "can" thread.

 

[gono btw]

Exactly

Shoji definitely wasn't a can. He was a good fighter at his Pride Days. Against regular competition, he won. Most of his losses came to "big names" like Coleman, Hendo and Jeremy Horn.

This concept of can is hard to define. You get guys like Julio Cesar Neves, whose cartel is impressive... But at what cost?

To end my point... Well... I believe Pride tried hard to get Hype with fighters from other Sports. I believe most of them didnt adapt themselves to the sport and the results were harsh. By saying that we get some names to do a quick analysis:

Yoshiaki Yatsu: Dude had legit Wrestling Credentials. What was the problem? Debuted at age 44.
Yuhi Sano: A fighter with pro wrestling background. Got subbed by bjj fighters. Outstriked by Strikers. Basically could not adapt.

For the last, we have Sentoryu. Some years ago, someone posted the link of the Pride Secret Files book, which ive read. There, basically said that Pride had this dream of creating a Superstar Fighter with Sumo background. Sentoryu ,who was also a response to K1's aquisition of Akebono, was probably the most promised since at the time, being considered "made for MMA" due to his muscle build and also was developing his striking skills at the time. Not only that, but he also managed to win his second bout in less than 30 seconds which hyped him even more. The results after that are... Well... the reason im talking about him in a "can" thread.

Poor Sano was really clueless on the ground... MMA was not his thing...

 

[gono btw]

Other people have already rightfully called you out for calling Yvel a "can", but a few other names on your list are even worse.

John Alessio was a good fighter for that time whose career had some unfortunate breaks. He first debuted in the UFC at the age of just 20, challenging Pat Miletich for the welterweight championship.

He was a decent wrestler, had solid ground and submission skills, and could kickbox for that era, although he lacked power.

At the age of 26, he was the victim of low-key one of the worst decisions in UFC history, against Diego Sanchez, who was a big deal in 2006. After easily and clearly winning the first two rounds against Sanchez, who repeatedly had his takedowns stuffed and was beaten standing, the judges still gave Sanchez a unanimous decision.

He beat a slew of solid guys and PRIDE/UFC vets, like Luiz Firmino, Eric Wisely, War Machine, Luigi Fioravanti, Gideon Ray, Pete Spratt, Eiji Mitusoaka, Chris Brennan, etc.

Akira Shoji? He was easily a level above the typical PRIDE Japanese can, with legitimate wrestling and judo skills, a solid submission and ground game, and the occasional right hand.

Despite being massively undersized against most of his Western opponents, he often gave them hard fights, had them hurt or in trouble (knocking down and seriously pounding Henderson, for instance), and beat some respectable names, like knocking out Wallid Ismail, decisioning Ebenezer Fontes Braga and Alex Stiebling, and a somewhat controversial victory over Mezger.

When Shoji fought a TRUE can, like Herman Renting or John Renken, he submitted them in the first round.

I could go on and on.

Shoji vs Mezger was an uneasy fight 2 score...

 

[2004 account]

Other people have already rightfully called you out for calling Yvel a "can", but a few other names on your list are even worse.

John Alessio was a good fighter for that time whose career had some unfortunate breaks. He first debuted in the UFC at the age of just 20, challenging Pat Miletich for the welterweight championship.

He was a decent wrestler, had solid ground and submission skills, and could kickbox for that era, although he lacked power.

At the age of 26, he was the victim of low-key one of the worst decisions in UFC history, against Diego Sanchez, who was a big deal in 2006. After easily and clearly winning the first two rounds against Sanchez, who repeatedly had his takedowns stuffed and was beaten standing, the judges still gave Sanchez a unanimous decision.

He beat a slew of solid guys and PRIDE/UFC vets, like Luiz Firmino, Eric Wisely, War Machine, Luigi Fioravanti, Gideon Ray, Pete Spratt, Eiji Mitusoaka, Chris Brennan, etc.

Akira Shoji? He was easily a level above the typical PRIDE Japanese can, with legitimate wrestling and judo skills, a solid submission and ground game, and the occasional right hand.

Despite being massively undersized against most of his Western opponents, he often gave them hard fights, had them hurt or in trouble (knocking down and seriously pounding Henderson, for instance), and beat some respectable names, like knocking out Wallid Ismail, decisioning Ebenezer Fontes Braga and Alex Stiebling, and a somewhat controversial victory over Mezger.

When Shoji fought a TRUE can, like Herman Renting or John Renken, he submitted them in the first round.

I could go on and on.

I stand by my original statement although I respect your opinion. I just don't feel the names you listed of said can's opponents really do much for their careers in retrospect because they are far from marquee names and having good performances or victories against them really doesn't elevate them out of can status imo.

At the end of the day it's subjective so neither of our absolute sounfding declarations are anything more than conjecture in reality. But in pretty sure a lot more mma fans would agree with my list than not

 

[PolarBearPaulVarelans]

I stand by my original statement although I respect your opinion. I just don't feel the names you listed of said can's opponents really do much for their careers in retrospect because they are far from marquee names and having good performances or victories against them really doesn't elevate them out of can status imo.

At the end of the day it's subjective so neither of our absolute sounfding declarations are anything more than conjecture in reality. But in pretty sure a lot more mma fans would agree with my list than not

It's subjective, but when you're calling decent, skilled fighters like John Alessio "cans", what the do you call the people he beat? And the people THEY beat? Also, was Diego Sanchez a can in 2006 since Alessio beat him, contrary to what the judges said?

And if he is, how many non-"cans" were there in the welterweight division in 2006? Like 5, tops?

You don't see a problem with claiming only about 5 guys in the division back then weren't cans?

Nevermind the fact that you put Alessio in the same list as guys like Yoji Anjo and Nobuhiko Takada, who legitimately did suck, even back then.

 

[gono btw]

An ol´interview, where Pliev talks about his career, Igor, Fedor, the new Russian Generation...

 

[The Reed]

Can is a losely thrown around word that should only be used to describe the real bottom of the barrel fighters, the ones that not only have a bad record but have barely any skills at fighting and never learn from their mistakes.


In pride some cans imo were

Matsui
Anjo
Takada
Shoji
Diet butcher


In the ufc :

John Alessio
Elvis Sinosic
Cody McKenzie
Wes sims
Steve Cantwell



And a can for both the ufc and pride:

Gilbert Yvel.

All those fighters are pretty skilled, some bad records but I wouldn't call any of them bottom of the barrel tbh.(except Takada)

 

[HHJ]

While I don't really consider a can, the mishandling of Nastula's mma career makes me sad.

Jmma is almost a diff sport in some ways...

 

[Dreaming Dead]

You guys are too afectionaffe of some fighters, and that doesn't allow you to call them what they really are - cans. Gimme fights.

Shoji was a can ffs. Kanehara was a can. But but he took Crocop to a decision. Yes, he survived, but he was still a can.

 

[gono btw]

You guys are too afectionaffe of some fighters, and that doesn't allow you to call them what they really are - cans. Gimme fights.

Shoji was a can ffs. Kanehara was a can. But but he took Crocop to a decision. Yes, he survived, but he was still a can.

Too simplistic. Go watch the fights.