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- Mar 2, 2018
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Today: [Multiple Eras]
MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.
A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.
This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like:
>'politics',
> timing,
> relevancy,
> 'prime',
among others...
> Of All the Brazilians you have fought, who was the toughest?
SAKU G. : Allan Goes. In that fight, I fought his style, not mine.
I think I lost that fight [special Fight Configuration: was ruled a Draw]
> Would you like a rematch with him?
SAKU G. : I´d like a rematch.
However, I can only fight 4 or 5 times a year, so I would rather fight someone I have not fought before.
Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:
Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes
Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin
Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L
Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim
Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino
Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland
Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L
Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey
ALL of them had unavenged losses.
Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano
and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez
Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...
In time, in GOAT talks, u do not compare Fighter X with Fighter Y,
like how the former would fare with the latter in the cage/ring.
What u do compare is:
1/ The way they dominated the game.
2/ The quality of their opponents.
3/ The innovations they brought to the game.
4/ How many HOFers in the resumé.
5/ Quality wins AND quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)
6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.
MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.
A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.
This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like:
>'politics',
> timing,
> relevancy,
> 'prime',
among others...
> Of All the Brazilians you have fought, who was the toughest?
SAKU G. : Allan Goes. In that fight, I fought his style, not mine.
I think I lost that fight [special Fight Configuration: was ruled a Draw]
> Would you like a rematch with him?
SAKU G. : I´d like a rematch.
However, I can only fight 4 or 5 times a year, so I would rather fight someone I have not fought before.
Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:
Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes
Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin
Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L
Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim
Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino
Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland
Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L
Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey
ALL of them had unavenged losses.
Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano
and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez
Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...
In time, in GOAT talks, u do not compare Fighter X with Fighter Y,
like how the former would fare with the latter in the cage/ring.
What u do compare is:
1/ The way they dominated the game.
2/ The quality of their opponents.
3/ The innovations they brought to the game.
4/ How many HOFers in the resumé.
5/ Quality wins AND quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)
6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
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