Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 22] - The 'Avenged Losses' Narrative...

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Today: [Multiple Eras]

MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.


A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.

This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like:
>'politics',
> timing,
> relevancy,
> 'prime',

among others...

Saku.jpg

> Of All the Brazilians you have fought, who was the toughest?

SAKU G. : Allan Goes. In that fight, I fought his style, not mine.
I think I lost that fight [special Fight Configuration: was ruled a Draw]

> Would you like a rematch with him?

SAKU G. : I´d like a rematch.
However, I can only fight 4 or 5 times a year, so I would rather fight someone I have not fought before.


Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes

Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin

Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L

Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim

Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino

Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland

Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L

Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey

ALL of them had unavenged losses.

Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb

are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano

and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez

Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...

In time, in GOAT talks, u do not compare Fighter X with Fighter Y,
like how the former would fare with the latter in the cage/ring.

What u do compare is:

1/ The way they dominated the game.

2/ The quality of their opponents.

3/ The innovations they brought to the game.

4/ How many HOFers in the resumé.

5/ Quality wins AND quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)

6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.


http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ma-evolution-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-33-the-undisputed-goat.3961171/
 

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  • Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years.txt
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Last edited:
Literally only GSP fans make this argument

And you’re right, it’s a bad one
 
Omg No Rush fans are the worst
 
Today:

MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.


A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.

This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like 'politics', timing,relevancy, 'prime', among others...

Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes

Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin

Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L

Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim

Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino

Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland

Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L

Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey

ALL of them had unavenged losses.

Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb

are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano

and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez

Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...

You got it all wrong:

The real GOAT is one whose only losses come to the fighter with the same first name
 
Today:

MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.


A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.

This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like 'politics', timing,relevancy, 'prime', among others...

Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes

Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin

Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L

Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim

Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino

Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland

Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L

Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey

ALL of them had unavenged losses.

Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb

are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano

and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez

Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...
Sorry its not boxing discussion here. Also good job in a GSP hate thread but honestly i cant help but laugh everytime i remind myself that you think Sakuraba is the greatest mixed martial artist of all time lol.
Avenges losses count i dont know what are you talking about
 
Sorry its not boxing discussion here. Also good job in a GSP hate thread but honestly i cant help but laugh everytime i remind myself that you think Sakuraba is the greatest mixed martial artist of all time lol.
Avenges losses count i dont know what are you talking about
SAKU is not the GOAT, he is MY GOAT and I dont need to convince anyone about it..
Im not insecure like ya, my friend...

I know there are some 10 OGs who share my opinion around here, and that´s enough for me.

Quality over Quantity.
 
Last edited:
GSP avenging all of his losses is a great achievement and a nice feather in his cap in the GOAT debate. That's pretty much undeniable. There is no better way of dealing with losses than getting revenge.
 
OP's next thread will be titled "Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 23] - The 'Positive Test' Narrative..."
 
I think that win/loss record, while an important consideration, should not be a defining one when deciding who is the cream of the crop in any sport.

In any competition, there are only a few outcomes (win / loss / draw / no contest), and it is what happens during the competition that counts.

Otherwise, we might as well let a computer algorithm calculate the probabilities of a win and stay home / not watch.

Of course, it is enjoyable when there is a “revenge” story, or an “underdog” scenario -this certainly adds a layer of enjoyment for many fans, in any sport.

However, it is important to realize that an athletic career will often not fit into a neat, mainstream movie narrative, where good always triumphs and everyone learns an important lesson.
 
Today:

MYTH:
The "Avenged Losses" narrative is a Decisive Criteria for GOAT consideration.


A certain fanbase around here keeps using this [false] narrative as a tie-breaker when it comes to assessin´ potential GOATs´ resume.

This [overrated] argument obviously overlooks basic considerations like 'politics', timing,relevancy, 'prime', among others...

Now, GOAT talks were already ragin´ in Boxing b4 MMA, where it´s still in its infancy...
If we consider the potential GOATs in each [main] weight class, these are the Boxers who never avenged their losses:

Heavyweight: Muhammad Ali:
Berbick
Holmes

Light heavyweight: Ezzard Charles :
Tommy Hurricane Jackson
Johnny Holman
Rocky Marciano x 2
Harold Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott : 2 W, then 2 L
Elmer Ray
Evelio "Kid" Tunero
Ken Overlin

Middleweight: Harry Greb :
Tiger Flowers: 1 W, 2 L
Joe Chip
Kid Graves
Gene Tunney : 1 W, 3 L
Kid Norfolk : 1 W then 1 L
Tiger Flowers : 1 W then 2 L

Welterweight: SRR :
Joey Archer
Stan Harrington x 2
Ferd Hernández
Mick Leahy
Joey Giardello
Terry Downes
Phil Moyer
Denny Moyer 1 W then 1 L
Gene Fullmer : 1 W 2 L
Ralph Jones
Joey Maxim

Lightweight: Henry Armstrong :
Chester Slider
John Thomas : 1 W then 1 L
Sugar Ray Robinson
Beau Jack
Reuben Shank
Lou Ambers: 1 W then 1 L
Joe Conde: 1 W then 1 L
Al Greenfield
Eddie Trujillo
Al Iovino

Featherweight: Willie Pep:
Sammy Angott
Sandy Saddler : 1 W, 3 L
Tommy Collins
Lulu Perez
Tommy Tibbs
Hogan Bassey
Sonny Leon
Calvin Woodland

Bantamweight: Eder Jofre:
Fighting Harada: 2 L

Flyweight: Jimmy Wilde :
Kid Herman
Pancho Villa
Jackie Sharkey

ALL of them had unavenged losses.

Now, let´s check the P4P GOAT dimension:
Im gonna use the attached list that I kept through the years, 'Ring Magazine's 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years', made in 2002 by a panel of writers (when Rings was still relevant):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb

are all considered ahead of :
12. Rocky Marciano

and Others in the list who avenged their losses:
53. Lennox Lewis
70. Ricardo Lopez

Indeed, this argument has never been considered a decisive one in Boxing Circles, but it is still rampant in MMA talks...


It's an interesting post, and I appreciate it. But outside of "they don't think it matters in boxing" you don't put forth any argument as to why boxing's view is superior to MMA's on this issue.
 
IMHO each person counts whatever it is important to them.
Of course, GSP fans only count this because GSP was able to avenge his losses.
But on the same token, why would SIlva ever fight Luiz Azeredo, Daiju Takase or even Ryo Chonan while he was at the top of MW division?
none of them deserve a title shot in the UFC, so it made absolutely no sense!
That's while Georges had to fight Hughes and Serra if he wanted to become a champion since those guys held the belt.

So I particularly think it is an irrelevant criteria. GSP was able to avenge his losses because those fights were pertinent to him in the UFC.
Silva only really had Okami that made sense for a rematch. And he avenged that "loss".

But I know I would never convince a GSP fan of the above. So why bother?
 
It's an interesting post, and I appreciate it. But outside of "they don't think it matters in boxing" you don't put forth any argument as to why boxing's view is superior to MMA's on this issue.
More experience in these talks, more maturity.
 
GSP avenging all of his losses is a great achievement and a nice feather in his cap in the GOAT debate. That's pretty much undeniable. There is no better way of dealing with losses than getting revenge.
It’s a good positive argument, just not a good negative one.
 
I think that win/loss record, while an important consideration, should not be a defining one when deciding who is the cream of the crop in any sport.

In any competition, there are only a few outcomes (win / loss / draw / no contest), and it is what happens during the competition that counts.

Otherwise, we might as well let a computer algorithm calculate the probabilities of a win and stay home / not watch.

Of course, it is enjoyable when there is a “revenge” story, or an “underdog” scenario -this certainly adds a layer of enjoyment for many fans, in any sport.

However, it is important to realize that an athletic career will often not fit into a neat, mainstream movie narrative, where good always triumphs and everyone learns an important lesson.
True.
 
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