Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 16] - Siamese Brothers, The 2 HW GOATs...

[gono btw]

Warning: TLDR here...



Today:[JMMA & USA MMA Scene]

MYTH: Fedor had a 'unique' HW run,
& was the only dominant HW in MMA History.


Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

Spoiler: DECONS

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ntroversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

+
https://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157

Note: Im not sayin´ Fedor cant be considered the HW GOAT, this is a hespectable stance, & Im OK with it.
Im tryin´ to assess something else here.

Context:

Always thought that the fights between these 2 HW GOATS were indeed the tie-breaker when it comes to determinin´ the HW GOAT.
But...No longer so sure...

Was rooting for Nog at that time, was stunned to see Fedor, with his unorthodox boxing, negating Nog´s more traditional boxing stance...
Fedor won decisively, and I acknowledged his superiority.

Still, recently, after re-watching their early runs, their very 1st fights,
I now tend to consider that this tie-breaker might not be such a decisive one
when it comes to assessing their career as a whole...

The thing is... people seem to only remember their Pride run... But there were...

3 ERAs:

1) Rings Era [Ring] :

Spoiler: Size Difference

Reminder: Rings´ Fight Configuration was a pretty specific one, where the size difference was not a clear differential, since Ground Control was hardly rewarded...

> Fedor:

12 Fights = 11-1 (TK fight : doctor stoppage after 17 sec)

1 Night with multiple fights:
vs Arona & vs TK.

Total Rounds = 15
Decisions = 3
Submissions = 5
> versatility: RNC (x2) / Guillotine (x2) / Armbar

Quality Wins:
Arona (Dec. > controversial)
Babalu (Dec.)
(Note: Babalu was a HW back then when he started.
In this fight he was around 229 lbs while Fedor was 227 lbs.)



Controversial Fight:

> vs Arona:


Arona was a LHW in this fight, @ 202 lbs, but you´re talkin about someone who would manhandle Kerr (!) a few yrs later @ ADCC.
The Arona fight was close, was ruled a Majority Draw at the end of the 2nd Round [Draw x 2 + 1 Judge gave it to Arona].
Arona had more ground control, but Fedor had more [not really tight] submission attempts...
Obviously, you have to consider Volk Han´s claim, that he had to interfere and make Maeda influence them judges...
Still, difficult to assess, right after the RTT vs Fedor feud...

Spoiler: Jeremy Horn on Rings´ Scoring System

"RINGS rules takes some getting used to. You have to look at things differently… you can’t just go out, look for the takedown, pass the guard and get the mount… that doesn’t mean as much as in NHB. You have to control the opponent throughout and hold your own on your feet."
— Jeremy Horn

> Big Nog:

10 Fights = 8-1-1 (Draw with TK & Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)

Total Rounds = 17
Decisions = 3 (incl.: 1 Split Dec. Win vs Kopylov & 1 Split Dec. Loss vs Hendo)
Submissions = 6
> versatility: RNC / Armbar (x3) / Americana / Arm-Triangle Choke
4 Nights with multiple fights:
vs Valentijn Overeem & vs Kochkine / vs Kopylov & vs Hendo / vs Labasanov & vs Tamura /
vs Volk Han & vs Kanehara & vs Valentijn Overeem

Quality Wins:
Valentijn Overeem (x2) (Sub.)
Yuriy Kochkine (Sub.)
Labasanov (Sub.)

Quality Loss:
Hendo (undersized) (Split Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Jeremy Horn (Dec.)
Kopylov (Split Dec.)
Volk Han (Dec.)
> way past their physical prime.
Tamura (undersized) (Sub.)

Controversial Fights:

> vs Horn [@ WEF 8] :

The truth is... that fight was kindah tricky to score, very close one, even the commentators were divided.
Should have been scored a Draw at the end of the regular time.
Horn was really game in that fight, surprised Big Nog...

> vs Kopylov:

Nobody talks about this fight, but I have to keep it real...

Kopylov vs Minotau Round 1... IIRC, in my mind, that was the only round Nog potentially lost in Rings...
The ol´Vet definitely dominated him in that round...
And we´re talkin´ about a Prime Minotau, grappling-wise [striking wise, his prime was after his Cuban stint, in Pride].
Obviously, Kopylov was too old & broken to sustain this pace in Rd 2, and gassed badly.
The fight ended with a Majority decision in Minotau´s favour: 2 Draws & 1 Judge gave it to him.

> vs Hendo:

Hendo was a LHW in this fight [198 lbs], while Nog was a HW [230 lbs].

https://www.mma-core.com/videos/Dan...T_1_2_Rings_King_of_Kings_1999_Final/10021298



As always, tough Hendo fight to score...
At the end of the regular time [2nd Rd], the judges had it a Draw [x3].
Hendo was declared winner at the end of the 3rd Rd, but one could say that Nog was arguably winning by
the end of the 2nd Rd:
> 1st Rd:
Nog connected with 1 punch, Hendo had a few decent knees to the body.
Nog got the TDs, but got reversed. Nog even got the full mount (actually got 1 in each round),
but didnt transition to anything threatening...
> 2nd Rd:
Nog again got the TDs, Hendo threatened twice with [not so tight] guillotines.
Then Nog got the full mount, transitioned to a [decent] armbar but had his legs in the wrong position to secure it.
> 3rd Rd:
Both connected with punches, Hendo with a cleaner uppercut.
Then Nog got the full mount, but didnt create anything much out of it...


Verdict:
- Nog with 2 Controversial Fights, Fedor with 1. [Nog with a slightly better case vs Hendo than Fedor vs Arona...]
- Nog with realistically more [pure] Quality Wins (4>2)
- Nog with a tougher stength of schedule.
- Nog with a more versatile ground game.

Edge > Nog, easily.
Rings was tailor-made for Nog´s GOAT grappling, but Fedor showcased some
slick sequences on the ground too (see the Kerry Shall fight).


2) Pride Era [Ring] :

> Fedor:

16 Fights = 15-1 (NC vs Big Nog)
Total Rounds = 25
4 Dec. Wins
6 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x3) / RNC / Kimura (x2)
5 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Ogawa & vs Big Nog

Quality Wins: 8
Big Nog (x2) (Dec.)
Crocop (Dec.)
Randleman (Sub.)
TK (TKO)
Herring (TKO)
Fujita (Sub.)
Schilt (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Coleman (x2)
> Way past his physical prime, even super-juiced.


> Big Nog:

22 Fights = 18-3-1 (NC)
Total Rounds = 43
5 Dec. Wins
3 Dec. Losses (1 Split vs Barnett)
11 Subs:
Versatility: Armbar (x6) / Anaconda Choke (x2) / Triangle Choke (x3)
2 KO/TKO
1 Night with multiple fights: vs Kharitonov & vs Fedor 2.

Quality Wins: 8
Schilt (Sub.)
Coleman (Sub.)
Ricco (Dec.)
Crocop (Sub.)
Herring (Sub.)
Kharitonov (Dec.)
Werdum (Dec.)
Barnett (Dec.)

Problematic Quality Wins:
Hendo
Tamura
> Undersized.

Controversial Fights:

> vs Barnett 1:
Tough 2 score...
1st Rd:
Nog was clearly outboxing him with jabz, when he got caught by a left hook.
Barnett followed to the ground, but didnt create anything substancial...
Nog even got the reversal, full mount, transitioned to a slick armbar, pretty tight,
but Barnett miraculously escaped.
2nd Rd:
Barnett got the TD, but then got reversed... Nog got the full mount, even Barnett´s back,
but lost the position.
Then Barnett finished the round stronger with 2 decent kneebar attempts...

Spoiler: Nog vs War Master

> vs Ricco Rodriguez:
Controversial dec., but people forget that Pride´s Scoring System was a complex one:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...

Check da Wizard´s explanation:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157

Gono´s assessment:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ntroversial-decisions-scorin´systems.4020275/

Obviously, these 2 Fedor wins over Nog were legit great, even GOAT, ones.

The question here is whether Nog can compensate overall with his Quality Wins.
Realistically, some elite competitors are missing here in Fedor´s resume:
Kharitonov, Werdum,Ricco,Barnett.
And Nog beat them all (1-1 vs Barnett).
Moreover, even though Fedor had an outstanding fight against Crocop, he did
fail to finish him, something Nog managed to do.


Verdict:
- Both with 2 Problematic Quality Wins.
- Both with equal Quality Wins (8-8).
- Nog with more 'elite' competition.
- Nog with 1 Controversial Fight.
- But Fedor with 2 GOAT Wins over Nog.

Edge > Fedor, but it´s arguably close when you consider
Nog´s [slightly] tougher stength of schedule.


3) Post-Pride Era [Cage/Ring] :

Note: Im gonna assess their fights till 2010, since I consider that, back in the days,
34 yrs was the realistic limit for a physical prime.

> Fedor:

6 Fights = 5-1
Multiple Orgs:
Yarennoka! / Affliction / BodogFIGHT > Ring
SF > Cage.

2 KO/TKO : punches
3 Subs :
Versatility : Armbar (x2) / RNC
1 Loss : Werdum (Triangle Choke)
Total Rounds = 7

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Arlovski (KO)
Matt Lindland (Sub.)


> Big Nog:

5 Fights = 3-2
Org.: UFC > Cage.
2 Dec. : vs Handy & vs Herring
2 Losses : vs Cain & vs Mir > TKO
Total Rounds = 12

Quality Wins: 3
Sylvia (Sub.)
Herring (Dec.)
Handy (Dec.)

Quality Losses:
Cain (KO)
Mir (TKO)


Verdict:
- Nog with [arguably] a slightly tougher strength of schedule again.
- Fedor with less losses
- Both declining.

Edge > hard to assess, but Fedor might get the nod here.



OVERALL > both locks @ top 2 ATG HW.

I feel that:

1- Nog might be ahead of Fedor in the HW GOAT list, or at least pretty close...
This is in no case a one-man race.

but:

2- Fedor should be ahead of him in the P4P GOAT list, since he was realistically undersized @ HW.

The thing is... some Fedor fans are too passionate and start usin´ superlatives, like 'unique' run, 'ultra-dominant' Fedor...
Doin´this, they tend to diminish Nog´s legacy, which is a mistake since Nog is realistically Fedor´s big ticket to potential goatness...

Hespect to both.

Spoiler: 'DECONS' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-13-khabib´s-eastern-european-career.3830345/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

 

[Tapping Machine]

Stipe would've crushed Nogueira, and Stipe has far fewer losses

Him vs Fedor is a 50-50 fight though

 

[wilKO]

Good post. My opinion. Nogueiras slightly stronger list of ranked wins does not negate the 2 Fedor losses. Fedor never lost a single round from Arona to Werdum. Nogueira had a few losses and battles along the way. It's not like Hallman vs Hughes were the superior fighter clearly lost twice. Fedor is the superior fighter and the GOAT. Nog is the 2nd best HW ever. You could argue Fedor never lost until he exited his prime. I think he was fading around the Brett Rogers fight. Nog lost multiple times in his prime.

 

[gono btw]

Good post. My opinion. Nogueiras slightly stronger list of ranked wins does not negate the 2 Fedor losses. Fedor never lost a single round from Arona to Werdum. Nogueira had a few losses and battles along the way. It's not like Hallman vs Hughes were the superior fighter clearly lost twice. Fedor is the superior fighter and the GOAT. Nog is the 2nd best HW ever. You could argue Fedor never lost until he exited his prime. I think he was fading around the Brett Rogers fight. Nog lost multiple times in his prime.

as I stated, these Nog losses were somehow controversial, tough fights 2 score...

Now, the way I see it, Nog has a slightly better case vs Hendo than Fedor vs Arona...

 

[sabretitan]

1. These noobs know fuck all about Fedor.

2. You got too much time on your hands. Less posting and go educate yourself on MMA

 

[wilKO]

as I stated, these Nog losses were somehow controversial, tough fights 2 score...

Now, the way I see it, Nog has a slightly better case vs Hendo than Fedor vs Arona...

Yeah but Nog was also fortunate vs Rodriguez. Fedor never had a close fight for almost 10 years. Nogueira had a lot of them. Add that to the 2 absolute pastings from Fedor.

I'm being harsh on Nogueira for the purpose of this thread. Nogueiras legacy is outstanding. I think if he and Fedor were 1-1 it would be harder to judge because you have Fedors sheer dominance and invincibility vs Nogueiras better resume of wins.

 

[Make Sherdog Great Again]

Neither Fedor nor Nog are HW GOAT.

 

[gono btw]

Yeah but Nog was also fortunate vs Rodriguez. Fedor never had a close fight for almost 10 years. Nogueira had a lot of them. Add that to the 2 absolute pastings from Fedor.

I'm being harsh on Nogueira for the purpose of this thread. Nogueiras legacy is outstanding. I think if he and Fedor were 1-1 it would be harder to judge because you have Fedors sheer dominance and invincibility vs Nogueiras better resume of wins.

About the Ricco fight, remember: in Pride, Ground Control was not rewarded:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...

 

[Irresponsible Dad]

Read the whole thing. There was no mention of any HW goats.

 

[gono btw]

1. These noobs know fuck all about Fedor.

2. You got too much time on your hands. Less posting and go educate yourself on MMA

hey dude, check your posts: in 99% of them you always find a way to spit this 'noob' BS...

Get a clue, bum.

Gsp smashes them all. Could be 4 weight division champ. Possibly 5. Unbelievable what he's done and clean

 

[wilKO]

Neither Fedor nor Nog are HW GOAT.

Let me Guess... Cain is

 

[lostdog000]

hard to judge rings fights when nobody knows their judging criteria

 

[Tarzan Johnson]

You have the free time to cure cancer. Get busy.

 

[gono btw]

You have the free time to cure cancer. Get busy.

Change your sissy AV.

 

[Iron Wolf]

This was a great post TS. Very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

It's good to see someone give Big Nog his due. He often gets lost in the shuffle. I agree he is one of the GOAT Heavyweights.

Disregard the bitter bum souls mocking a great effort on your part.

Worthy post.

 

[gono btw]

This was a great post TS. Very interesting read. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

It's good to see someone give Big Nog his due. He often gets lost in the shuffle. I agree he is one of the GOAT Heavyweights.

Disregard the bitter bum souls mocking a great effort on your part.

Worthy post.

 

[acannxr]

@gono btw - Quality post, thanks for writing it up .

I can understand your rationale, the same logic could probably be made when comparing Velasquez and JDS; JDS fought a wider variety of quality opponents and had a better strength of schedule, but is 1-2 against Velasquez.

I still have Emelianenko as the HW GOAT, but Nogueira is my number two spot.

 

[gono btw]

@gono btw - Quality post, thanks for writing it up .

I can understand your rationale, the same logic could probably be made when comparing Velasquez and JDS; JDS fought a wider variety of quality opponents and had a better strength of schedule, but is 2-1 against Velasquez.

I still have Emelianenko as the HW GOAT, but Nogueira is my number two spot.

As stated, Im fine with Fedor @ No1, I only wanted to show that it´s pretty close between the 2 veterans...

 

[dns2344]

Stipe would've crushed Nogueira, and Stipe has far fewer losses

Him vs Fedor is a 50-50 fight though

GOAT most commonly refers to career achievements and not who would win 1 vs 1.
If it was who would win 1 vs 1 then Nog vs Fedor wouldn't even be a debate because of Fedor's victories against hm.

Stipe's career so far does not compare to neither Nog or Fedor.

 

[dns2344]

Thanks TS. I think this shows why people often say Fedor and Nog are #1 and #2 while the next fighter is a distant #3.