Dealing with better than average wrestlers Kesa Gatame

[SummerStriker]

Most "experienced submission grapplers" are aware that the scarf hold is a sub par position that's usually a last ditch effort to control an opponent that's about to escape out the side door with an underhook. It leaves your opponents hips completely free to move around.

You don't just throw a leg over his head and hope he's dumb enough not to shrug it off.
You inch worm your hips away from his and launch them off the ground and up towards his head as you throw your leg over, forcing him to either carry your lower body weight to keep from being reversed, or he has to bury his head on the mat to avoid the leg.
In which case he just gave you enough space to get to your knees.

Your welcome, for the free technical breakdown of this "fake" move.

I get that, and I promise that if your power lifting total was 500 more than mine, you would still not be able to use that escape because no amount of wishing or inching is going to get your leg over my head.

 

[mattemate]

the best kind of parents

Honestly these kids will earn any trophies they ever get and won't be fucking crybabies as adults. They'll be ready for the real world.

 

[RJ Green]

i don't trust people who don't swear at children.

 

[Thrawn33]

Recognize it coming and escape early. Give a good wrestler or Judoka time to settle their weight and your odds of escape will gradually degrade to nothing.....

....if top man's goal is just to hold you there.

My kesa and kuzere kesa are pretty danm good, works great for wrestling or judo when win by pin is an option, or when I just want to stall and catch my wind in bjj. Its when I'm actually transitioning to a sub (because hey I'm doing bjj to learn) that openings come about and I risk the higher belts escaping to a less stifiling position.

 

[MaxMMA]

I get that, and I promise that if your power lifting total was 500 more than mine, you would still not be able to use that escape because no amount of wishing or inching is going to get your leg over my head.

Jesus Christ...

 

[randomg1t]

Most "experienced submission grapplers" are aware that the scarf hold is a sub par position that's usually a last ditch effort to control an opponent that's about to escape out the side door with an underhook. It leaves your opponents hips completely free to move around.

You don't just throw a leg over his head and hope he's dumb enough not to shrug it off.
You inch worm your hips away from his and launch them off the ground and up towards his head as you throw your leg over, forcing him to either carry your lower body weight to keep from being reversed, or he has to bury his head on the mat to avoid the leg.
In which case he just gave you enough space to get to your knees.

Your welcome, for the free technical breakdown of this "fake" move.

that's all really nice, but go and do it on a competitive judo player. it's not going to happen. no need to get offended, it works fine in bjj, because bjj players mostly have really shitty kesa.

as for saying the scar hold is a sub par position... i'm not sure about that one either. at first glance, the lack of underhook just screams "take their back!" at any experienced bjj guy, but like i've said before, they are not the ones to watch when doing this pin. i've rolled with judokas who were absolutely insane with this. one guy wasn't even a competitor anymore, just a dude that's been doing it for decades, and it was like trying to escape a straitjacket. i probably don't have to explain how it felt when an olympic competitor did it on me.

when they do it properly, your shoulders and middle back are completely pinned to the floor, and their head is low. you can't even lift your hips off the ground, and even if you manage to somewhat do that, your legs don't reach over their head. it just doesn't happen. it's a legit pin, and unless you can get your elbow to the mat, you're staying there.

 

[MaxMMA]

that's all really nice, but go and do it on a competitive judo player. it's not going to happen. no need to get offended, it works fine in bjj, because bjj players mostly have really shitty kesa.

as for saying the scar hold is a sub par position... i'm not sure about that one either. at first glance, the lack of underhook just screams "take their back!" at any experienced bjj guy, but like i've said before, they are not the ones to watch when doing this pin. i've rolled with judokas who were absolutely insane with this. one guy wasn't even a competitor anymore, just a dude that's been doing it for decades, and it was like trying to escape a straitjacket. i probably don't have to explain how it felt when an olympic competitor did it on me.

when they do it properly, your shoulders and middle back are completely pinned to the floor, and their head is low. you can't even lift your hips off the ground, and even if you manage to somewhat do that, your legs don't reach over their head. it just doesn't happen. it's a legit pin, and unless you can get your elbow to the mat, you're staying there.

Oh my lord, I never said it wasn't a real position. I said it was sub par for trying to submit someone.

And since everyone wants to play the "your escape wouldn't work on me game: "your kess ketamine wouldn't work on me either... because I said so.

 

[randomg1t]

Oh my lord, I never said it wasn't a real position. I said it was sub par for trying to submit someone.

And since everyone wants to play the "your escape wouldn't work on me game: "your kess ketamine wouldn't work on me either... because I said so.

no, you said it was a sub par position and a last ditch effort before they escape out the side door.

and i'm sure your escape would work fine on me. i'm a regular old bjj guy, my kesa sucks, i never do it. but that doesn't mean it's a good escape against someone who doesn't suck at it.

i've told you before, there's no need to get defensive over this. several people have tried to explain to you why the escape won't work, no need to throw a tantrum over it. this isn't a case of people saying you can't do it on them because they're so badass. it's them explaining it won't work because your basic premise on why it does work is flawed. a good kesa gatame simply doesn't leave you an opening for the legs over head escape, just like a good armbar doesn't leave you enough space to just yank your arm out. it doesn't mean it will never work, but it won't work on anyone good.

 

[MaxMMA]

no, you said it was a sub par position and a last ditch effort before they escape out the side door.

and i'm sure your escape would work fine on me. i'm a regular old bjj guy, my kesa sucks, i never do it. but that doesn't mean it's a good escape against someone who doesn't suck at it.

i've told you before, there's no need to get defensive over this. several people have tried to explain to you why the escape won't work, no need to throw a tantrum over it. this isn't a case of people saying you can't do it on them because they're so badass. it's them explaining it won't work because your basic premise on why it does work is flawed. a good kesa gatame simply doesn't leave you an opening for the legs over head escape, just like a good armbar doesn't leave you enough space to just yank your arm out. it doesn't mean it will never work, but it won't work on anyone good.

Now you're on the same armbar yank that summer striker was on. You guys think these techniques don't work, because you don't know how to do them.

If your head is so low on scarf hold top because you're worried about a leg over the head, there is enough space to turn your hips down to the mat and get to your knees.

Pulling your arm out of an armbar is actually the most effective way of escaping an armbar.
Just because you saw someone demonstrate it once and decided that in your expert opinion it just looked like they were "yanking" it out, doesn't mean that it isn't a real technique.

Stack your opponent on his neck, shelf your knee behind his lower back. Then use short hard jerks to keep your arm bent while loosening the hold. As soon as your elbow joint clears his hips, then you can yank it out fast.

Grappling has a lot of depth that a lot of people on sherdog don't yet get. Techniques that look like you're just pulling your arm out, or throwing a leg over aren't so simple.

 

[randomg1t]

Now you're on the same armbar yank that summer striker was on. You guys think these techniques don't work, because you don't know how to do them.

If your head is so low on scarf hold top because you're worried about a leg over the head, there is enough space to turn your hips down to the mat and get to your knees.

Pulling your arm out of an armbar is actually the most effective way of escaping an armbar.
Just because you saw someone demonstrate it once and decided that in your expert opinion it just looked like they were "yanking" it out, doesn't mean that it isn't a real technique.

Stack your opponent on his neck, shelf your knee behind his lower back. Then use short hard jerks to keep your arm bent while loosening the hold. As soon as your elbow joint clears his hips, then you can yank it out fast.

Grappling has a lot of depth that a lot of people on sherdog don't yet get. Techniques that look like you're just pulling your arm out, or throwing a leg over aren't so simple.

i was clearly talking about yanking the arm out, not stacking your opponent and getting your arm out safely.

how else do you escape an armbar, if not by pulling your arm out? the analogy here is that you either lock hands, secure good grips, stack them, clear the elbow or do what white belts do and extend your arm and pull it out. the first option is the way to go. the second isn't. legs over head in kesa is the second option here.

you are severely underestimating the knowledge of people on this board.

 

[MaxMMA]

i was clearly talking about yanking the arm out, not stacking your opponent and getting your arm out safely.

how else do you escape an armbar, if not by pulling your arm out? the analogy here is that you either lock hands, secure good grips, stack them, clear the elbow or do what white belts do and extend your arm and pull it out. the first option is the way to go. the second isn't. legs over head in kesa is the second option here.

you are severely underestimating the knowledge of people on this board.

Once again, you're not just "throwing your leg over their head." I broke down that technique to summerstriker earlier in this thread.

 

[Russky]

If your head is so low on scarf hold top because you're worried about a leg over the head, there is enough space to turn your hips down to the mat and get to your knees.

Tell your partners to stop sitting on the floor with kesa. Both of your escapes exploit this mistake. All their weight should be on your floating ribs and their toes.

 

[MaxMMA]

Tell your partners to stop sitting on the floor with kesa. Both of your escapes exploit this mistake. All their weight should be on your floating ribs and their toes.

Pendulum swinging my hips back and forth is usually how I get their weight off my chest and their ass back on the floor.

Nice try though.

 

[Russky]

Pendulum swinging my hips back and forth is usually how I get their weight off my chest and their ass back on the floor.

Nice try though.

Are we talking no gi? This swing won't work if they control the sleeve and arm properly.

 

[SummerStriker]

Pendulum swinging my hips back and forth is usually how I get their weight off my chest and their ass back on the floor.

Nice try though.

That works if the guy has never seen it before. That's barely a move. It is a gimmick, like punching someone in the quad. You get one of those against each person if they are actively learning.

It's a white belt killer.

 

[rmongler]

Pendulum swinging my hips back and forth is usually how I get their weight off my chest and their ass back on the floor.

Nice try though.

What the heck does spazzing out have to do with whether their butt is in gear or not?

Either he is keeping ass up, or he isn't; its not about what you are doing, except in a proximal manner, its about what he is doing. That is to say, does he have good technique, or bad technique?

You can flail your legs around as much as you like, if he keeps his hips up, then they're up. Go total beastmode and just explode him off of you even, that still means he's up. There's just no translation to dropping them in any way there, unless the flailing is actually a medium for esoteric somatic rituals to afflict him with psychic control rays.

If the guy holding you starts dropping his butt back on to the ground, its not because you're doing something, its because he's not mindful of what he is doing. Ie, bad technique. Which lets you get away with shit.

Basically its sounding a lot like you're rolling with people who suck (at scarfhold).

 

[MaxMMA]

That works if the guy has never seen it before. That's barely a move. It is a gimmick, like punching someone in the quad. You get one of those against each person if they are actively learning.

It's a white belt killer.

Every move is "barely a move" to you, what's new?

 

[MaxMMA]

What the heck does spazzing out have to do with whether their butt is in gear or not?

Either he is keeping ass up, or he isn't; its not about what you are doing, except in a proximal manner, its about what he is doing. That is to say, does he have good technique, or bad technique?

You can flail your legs around as much as you like, if he keeps his hips up, then they're up. Go total beastmode and just explode him off of you even, that still means he's up. There's just no translation to dropping them in any way there, unless the flailing is actually a medium for esoteric somatic rituals to afflict him with psychic control rays.

If the guy holding you starts dropping his butt back on to the ground, its not because you're doing something, its because he's not mindful of what he is doing. Ie, bad technique. Which lets you get away with shit.

Basically its sounding a lot like you're rolling with people who suck (at scarfhold).

Once again showing your inexperience. Pendulum swinging your lower body to create space is spazzing out... Jesus christ.

 

[Russky]

Pendulum singing is a legitimate technique when opponent is not controlling your sleeve and shoulder well. Then you can swing and turn to the side getting more range for the leg to hook.

Here's nice demonstration on how to control the sleeve:

 

[Kirra]

Most "experienced submission grapplers" are aware that the scarf hold is a sub par position that's usually a last ditch effort to control an opponent that's about to escape out the side door with an underhook. It leaves your opponents hips completely free to move around.

I have no idea why so many people who train BJJ have this misconception about kesa.

This "sub par position" is one of the best pins out there. You basically have only one way out and that's getting your elbow down to the floor and turning in. How are you going to bring that leg over the head if the guy on top keeps his head in the right place?

I'm a shit-tier bluebelt and people aren't often getting away from my kesa if I just try to hold the position.