David Camarillo: Learn Judo before BJJ

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Mokuren Dojo - Aikido, Judo, Karate: Mokuren Dojo Exclusive Interview: David Camarillo

Patrick Parker: I obviously have a big interest in training children. I have two of my kids (aged 6 and 4) in judo already and can't wait to get the rest of them old enough to play with me. Do you think it is better to start kids on the ground, emphasizing newaza and perhaps smaller throws and takedowns, or is it better for the young athlete to emphasize the higher-amplitude ippon judo.

Dave Camarillo: Judo is the best art to start with. It is simply understood by what Judo gives you versus its counterpart, namely Jiu-Jitsu. Jiu-Jitsu breeds students who base their fighting ability on technique. That means you will naturally see a major difference in a Judoka and a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. The difference is a Judoka will be a force, bred to be aggressive with technique as a secondary focus. The Jiu-Jitsu student is bred to look for the easiest ways to accomplish something. This means they will generally be lazier than the latter.
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Overall: It is easier to build attributes and technique than to rely on technique as a default setting.
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If a student starts with JJ they will find it much harder to build those attributes to push their technique under extreme circumstances. The Judoka doesn't have the same difficulty in learning the important technique after the fact.
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It is a mindset that we are talking about. And when someone is bred to be lazy, breaking that spell could possibly be impossible.
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Patrick Parker: So, do you think coming from a judo background at a young age and then branching out into jiu-jitsu, wrestling, etc… is the best way, or might a child just as well begin in jiu-jitsu then pick up some judo, boxing, etc...?
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Dave Camarillo: Judo is the ultimate in Martial Arts. It is the toughest art I have ever sampled. It builds character, respect and aggression in its application. I believe it prepares the student for anything.
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As far as its translation in MMA it is easily adaptable because of how it builds proper coordination. From grip fighting you gain fast and precise movement with your hands arms and legs. In tachi-waza (throwing) you build fast hip movement and extreme core strength. In Ne Waza (ground fighting) you build an aggressive ground game.
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I calculate its holistic application by what it gives you:
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Grip fighting: Fast hand movement. This translates to fast hands in Boxing.
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Tachi-Waza: Fast hip movement and core strength. This translates to hip coordination required for kicking and good throws means a good clinch game and getting your opponent to the ground.
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Ne-Waza: Decent ground fighting. This translates into an increased progression level when learning Jiu-Jitsu.
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All of this translates into a good fighter in MMA competition. The talents gained while practicing Judo creates the will and body that is extremely conducive for MMA fighting. I will be outlining this in my next book Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu II. I don't think this topic has been given proper analysis.


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I was wondering what peoples thoughts were on the validity of this.
 
This was discussed before, maybe you can find that thead also...

I think he has a point about learning aggressivness early on, but I think he exaggerates when he calls ALL BJJ players lazy.

I also think he grossly generalizes in what he says here:

I calculate its holistic application by what it gives you:
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Grip fighting: Fast hand movement. This translates to fast hands in Boxing.
Really???? Name me a Judo guy with good hands. At least there is not a higher % of Judo guys with good hands vs BJJ guys with good hands

Tachi-Waza: Fast hip movement and core strength. This translates to hip coordination required for kicking and good throws means a good clinch game and getting your opponent to the ground.
Hmmhh... so Judo guys are prone to be good kickers?? Also, why would a Judo guy automatically have a better clinch game than say a BJJ champ who spends maybe half his TD training in the clinch, especially when doing No Gi?

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Ne-Waza: Decent ground fighting. This translates into an increased progression level when learning Jiu-Jitsu.
OK.... The question is what is more useful to start with? Decent takedowns and a great groundgame or a decent groundgame and awesome Takedowns (with a Gi).... Don't see a great advantage in neither really

All of this translates into a good fighter in MMA competition. The talents gained while practicing Judo creates the will and body that is extremely conducive for MMA fighting. I will be outlining this in my next book Guerrilla Jiu-Jitsu II. I don't think this topic has been given proper analysis

I think he is just talking up his product (which is a great one).

BJJ needs more Judo, yes, they are like long lost twins.

But saying you need to start in Judo to become a better MMA fighter as opposed to BJJ is flawed.

Also remember what BJJ was designed for originally?? NHB combat.
Quite a few clubs still keep that in mind and train/ compete accordingly.

I have great respect for Judo, but as it is trained now is jacket wrestling for points, with no relation to MMA.
 
ShanghaiBJJ said:
Really???? Name me a Judo guy with good hands. At least there is not a higher % of Judo guys with good hands vs BJJ guys with good hands

Fedor, Akiyama, Misaki, Lombard, Sokodjou

heck even Yoshida isn't half bad, he frekkin stood with Wandy twice when Wnady was KOing everybody

Judo is very very hard on the body, look at most of the judokas that have entered MMA after their active career, they are shell of their former selfs, The average age of the winners in the last olympics were around 20, with only a few over 30.

You are naturally much better at taking abuse in training at an early age, you are more limber. those skills are hard to develop when older. judo is like langauge you learn it better as young

You have world champs in BJJ starting as adults. that doesn't happen in wrestling or judo. jsut not possible
 
Hmm, I think this is quite accurate if you're talking about training kids. The body motions required for Judo are larger, and more easily assimilated by children. As for the MMA bits, eh.
 
I think Dave Camarillo is wrong on most of this stuff, but I guess it really just comes down to different opinions and experiences.

I understand where he is coming from, but I don't think teaching aggression over technique is a sound practice. I think that's the biggest drawback to Judo, why Judo guys get hurt so much, and why they are generally not as effective as BJJ guys overall.

Obviously, my opinion is biased because I prefer the BJJ philosophy over the Judo philosophy. I love Judo technique, but I always apply it with the BJJ mindset if that makes any sense. Dave clearly prefers the Judo philosophy, and that is reflected in his comments.
 
His statements concerning MMA and laziness are over the top, but I also would put my 7 year old kids in judo or wrestling any day of the week rather than in BJJ. Than later on they can make the transition with a solid base.
 
Better to learn judo first because it will cripple you if you try to learn it later in life, when you are older, heavier, and more injury prone.

That's the best reason.
 
You have to learn on the training wheels before you can ride the big boy bike.

Judoka= not as good at takedowns as wrestlers, and not as good on the ground as bjjers.


KIDDING^^ (but not really)


I agree with Zankou. The reason to learn judo first is because the high number of falls you have to take to get good at it... your grown body can't take it.

It has nothing to do with toughness. Go tell JJM he doesnt train hard. There are more fat judokas than bjj guys. Camarillo is just shilling for what he sees as his competitve advantage. Makes some ridiculous claims while doing it though.
 
what dave is saying is that it is easier to do judo earlier in life where you can build the attributes that that sport requires. those attributes can help your bjj game, starting judo later in life will make aquiring those attributes much more difficult.
 
I think Dave Camarillo is wrong on most of this stuff, but I guess it really just comes down to different opinions and experiences.

I understand where he is coming from, but I don't think teaching aggression over technique is a sound practice. I think that's the biggest drawback to Judo, why Judo guys get hurt so much, and why they are generally not as effective as BJJ guys overall.

Obviously, my opinion is biased because I prefer the BJJ philosophy over the Judo philosophy. I love Judo technique, but I always apply it with the BJJ mindset if that makes any sense. Dave clearly prefers the Judo philosophy, and that is reflected in his comments.

to be fair this debate is pretty big within the judo community, heck it has even taken place on this forum

the gentle art vs the "ugly judo" art you know, Koga vs Rhadi:icon_chee

Look at Aoki his judo background is probably more closer to Koga then Rhadi and that reflects in his grappling style

Fedor more of a smasher
 
to be fair this debate is pretty big within the judo community, heck it has even taken place on this forum

the gentle art vs the "ugly judo" art you know, Koga vs Rhadi:icon_chee

Look at Aoki his judo background is probably more closer to Koga then Rhadi and that reflects in his grappling style

Fedor more of a smasher

That is a good point.

Even though Dave was clearly advocating the "ugly Judo", I know that not everyone in Judo agrees with that. I think most of the competitive guys generally do from what I have seen, but again that is my personal experience.
 
I've been mulling it over in my head, and I am starting to agree with Camarillo, but for completely different reasons. I think it might be beneficial for kids to start learning judo before bjj, but not because of the mindset or attitude or anything like that. I think you can get the appropriate attributes in either sport, it depends more on the individual and the instructor. But I think that if you start with judo you'll develop great throws, and the principles of throwing and balance will be ingrained in you from the start, and that won't go away. BJJ focuses less on takedowns, and starting with bjj it seems less likely that you'll develop great throws.
 
You have to learn on the training wheels before you can ride the big boy bike.

Judoka= not as good at takedowns as wrestlers, and not as good on the ground as bjjers.


KIDDING^^ (but not really)


I agree with Zankou. The reason to learn judo first is because the high number of falls you have to take to get good at it... your grown body can't take it.

It has nothing to do with toughness. Go tell JJM he doesnt train hard. There are more fat judokas than bjj guys. Camarillo is just shilling for what he sees as his competitve advantage. Makes some ridiculous claims while doing it though.

there are only more fat judokas because there are more judokas:icon_chee

BJJ
size-does-matter-742262.jpg


BJJ
304_l.jpg


BJJ
roynelson.jpg


only fat judoka in MMA
Lungu
LunguBuchananCageRage18_001.JPG


j/k

Judokas better at takedowns than BJJers
Judokas better on the ground than wrestlers

case of is the glass half full or half empty kind of deal
 
That is a good point.

Even though Dave was clearly advocating the "ugly Judo", I know that not everyone in Judo agrees with that. I think most of the competitive guys generally do from what I have seen, but again that is my personal experience.

I think it is pretty even at the top level

It is "easier" to get quick success with ugly judo, but does comp guys usually knows pretty judo aswell later in their careers

I know I have felt my fair share of nice judo losses:redface:
 
I've been mulling it over in my head, and I am starting to agree with Camarillo, but for completely different reasons. I think it might be beneficial for kids to start learning judo before bjj, but not because of the mindset or attitude or anything like that. I think you can get the appropriate attributes in either sport, it depends more on the individual and the instructor. But I think that if you start with judo you'll develop great throws, and the principles of throwing and balance will be ingrained in you from the start, and that won't go away. BJJ focuses less on takedowns, and starting with bjj it seems less likely that you'll develop great throws.

there are some guys with great throws/takedowns from BJJ backgrounds, Nate Diaz has that Harai perfected, while his brother can't take anybody down(sorry Montanha/Cash Bill I call it as I see it:D)

But then a guy like Big Nog, who supposedly has a judo BB and backgroun has shitty takedowns/throws:confused::confused::confused:

Ken-Flo has developed a pretty good takedown game late in life
 
I don't really agree with him with all the order stuff, but do recognize that both arts go well together and learning both is a very solid advantage.
 
I guess Ishii will be the "proof", even thou data from one athlete isn't enough to base any real conclusion on

A world class judoka entering MMA in his prime, maybe Fedor but he ended his judo career before any top-top wins.

BJJers has already done it and reached the top in MMA, likewise with wrestling
 
What I don't get, is he teaches an intergrated system guerilla jiu-jitsu. Yes says teach kids judo firsts. But why not teach them both from the begining? I mean don't force them or even allow them to integrate them till they are good at both separately but thats what I'd do. As a kid I never wanted to do the same thing over and over again so splitting my time between two different martial arts would have been better for me than doing the same damn martial arts every day. If I could do it all over thats how I'd do it. And not have dropped wrestling in hs. You live, you learn.
 
Idk what he's talking about with this BJJ=lazy thing. The overwhelming majority of the Judo guys at my academy are fat slobs.
 
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