Dark alley, night, girl in bikini should be safe, agree?

[IGotAHugePeckah]

Of course she SHOULD be safe, just like I SHOULD be able to leave my Jeep unlocked downtown with the keys in the ignition. I SHOULD be able to drop my wallet full of cash on the sidewalk and come back a couple hours later to find it sitting there waiting for me.

Where this feminism/SJW stuff gets dangerous is that they operate in an ideal fantasy world that does not and will not ever exist. We had a martial arts guy teaching women's self defence and he did an interview with the local news saying that women should learn some self defence techniques to keep themselves safe. Feminists went NUTS. "It's not a woman's responsibility to defend herself, it's a man's responsibility not to rape! Learning self defence techniques is NORMALIZING RAPE!"

 

[VivaRevolution]

They should be safe means it is a situation to strive for. An ideal goal. As a matter of principle and as a society we should take that position.

I don't know about that. I definitely agree we should have a society with very low crime rates, but the elimination of crime completely, sounds like a goal that leads to unintended consequences.

 

[nostradumbass]

I don't feel particularly safe walking through a dark alley at night alone, and I'm a 6'4 dude who isn't going out of my way to attract rapists.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

Of course she SHOULD be safe, just like I SHOULD be able to leave my Jeep unlocked downtown with the keys in the ignition. I SHOULD be able to drop my wallet full of cash on the sidewalk and come back a couple hours later to find it sitting there waiting for me.

Where this feminism/SJW stuff gets dangerous is that they operate in an ideal fantasy world that does not and will not ever exist. We had a martial arts guy teaching women's self defence and he did an interview with the local news saying that women should learn some self defence techniques to keep themselves safe. Feminists went NUTS. "It's not a woman's responsibility to defend herself, it's a man's responsibility not to rape! Learning self defence techniques is NORMALIZING RAPE!"

Best to just ignore blind ideologues. Fantasy worlds are just that.

 

[trolololol]

Everyone should feel safe out in public, but let's be realistic...

If you're gonna walk around Compton with a big bag of money in the middle of the night, you're gonna get robbed.

 

[tonni]

I don't know about that. I definitely agree we should have a society with very low crime rates, but the elimination of crime completely, sounds like a goal that leads to unintended consequences.

It's not about eliminating crime completely, it's about providing a safer society for women. They are much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault, rape and serial killers for instance. Why would you not strive to eliminate that?

What are the unintended consequences of making sure women get killed and raped less, and how do they weigh up against the positives of this improvement?

 

[tonni]

Everyone should feel safe out in public, but let's be realistic...

If you're gonna walk around Compton with a big bag of money in the middle of the night, you're gonna get robbed.

But would you bring this up if there was a group of people trying to make Compton a safer place? "Well, you're just going to get robbed deal with it."

 

[VivaRevolution]

It's not about eliminating crime completely, it's about providing a safer society for women. They are much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault, rape and serial killers for instance. Why would you not strive to eliminate that?

What are the unintended consequences of making sure women get killed and raped less, and how do they weigh up against the positives of this improvement?

The mental gymnastics you have going on here would win you a gold medal, but it is winter Olympics time, not summer.

 

[S-dot]

It’s a really good example to demonstrate the differences between what I’ll call the least ideal, real life, pragmatic best case, and fantasy world ideals. Most of what people complain about now a days are things that are somewhere in and around real-pragmatic best case, but people want fantasy ideal.

In this case-
Least ideal is that she should not expect any type of safety and walking down any alley in a bikini without any context is a guarantee that she’ll be raped or kidnapped.

Real life is that there’s always a chance and the probability varies depending on location. Gender definitely increases her chances as does attractiveness.

Pragmatic best case is the realistic scenario that most mirrors the fantasy ideal. So in reality there’ll always be some threat but a best case would be that we could clean up crime and poverty and addiction enough in any given community that the likelihood of running into someone in the alley goes way down and it becomes more likely than not that no one is hiding there ready to attack.

Fantasy ideal is that any woman can walk down any alley any time and doesn’t even consider the idea that she’ll be attacked. It’s not possible but it’s a perfect scenario that everyone’s outside of bad actors would agree should be the way things are.

 

[tonni]

The mental gymnastics you have going on here would win you a gold medal, but it is winter Olympics time, not summer.

What are those gymnastics? I asked you a question about the unintended consequences, and you just ignored it.

 

[VivaRevolution]

What are those gymnastics?

That somehow we went from discussing whether we should have zero tolerance, and go for zero policies, when that goal is literally unacheivable, and if setting a unachievable goal can lead to unintended consequences, to I'm defending rape and murder of women.

10.0 you really stuck the landing

 

[redwire]

They should be safe, but not feel safe in a dangerous situation. Feeling safe in a dangerous situation would be an evolutionary failure, regardless of your gender or wardrobe.

 

[nostradumbass]

It's not about eliminating crime completely, it's about providing a safer society for women. They are much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault, rape and serial killers for instance. Why would you not strive to eliminate that?

What are the unintended consequences of making sure women get killed and raped less, and how do they weigh up against the positives of this improvement?

Why only women and not anyone else? They aren't killed more, I don't know who told you that.

Also, yeah of course don't rape anyone, but if society was ever at a point where guys had a "take it or leave it" attitude on sex to the extent there weren't a few live wires who criminally take, shit would get rough for women real quick. Same with money, anything that is desired, if it's something people want, a few will take criminal shortcuts.

 

[tonni]

That somehow we went from discussing whether we should have zero tolerance, and go for zero policies, when that goal is literally unacheivable, and if setting a unachievable goal can lead to unintended consequences, to I'm defending rape and murder of women.

10.0 you really stuck the landing

When did I say you defended the rape and murder of women? I asked you about the unintended consequences, and you ignored it. I don't see how anything I said is unrelated to the topic or even unreasonable.

 

[VivaRevolution]

It's not about eliminating crime completely, it's about providing a safer society for women. They are much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault, rape and serial killers for instance. Why would you not strive to eliminate that?

What are the unintended consequences of making sure women get killed and raped less, and how do they weigh up against the positives of this improvement?

Here

If setting unachievable goals can lead to unintended consequences then i am against efforts to reduce rape and murder of women.

I mean it is clear straw man argument, but instead I went with the mental gymnastics comment.

 

[tonni]

Why only women? They aren't killed more, I don't know who told you that.

Also, yeah of course don't rape anyone, but if society was ever at a point where guys had a "take it or leave it" attitude on sex to the extent there weren't a few live wires who criminally take, shit would get rough for women real quick. Same with money, anything that is desired, if it's something people want, a few will take criminal shortcuts.

They are the main victim of serial killers and are raped more often.

It's about whether you want to improve the situation, which often time is accompanied by an "ideal" but admittedly unrealistic goal (zero rape, zero murder etc) or whether you just want to argue that it's the women's own fault and accept the status quo.

 

[tonni]

Here

Yes, and? If you have a criticism, go ahead and say it. If you don't want to explain what the unintended consequences are, just say that too.

Don't be vague.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Yes, and? If you have a criticism, go ahead and say it. If you don't want to explain what the unintended consequences are, just say that too.

Don't be vague.

I edited.

Read it slowly, because you seem emotional right now.

You created a fallacy. I can hold the position that unachievable goals can have unintended consequences, and not be for the rape and murder of women. That is actually in the realm of possibility.

 

[nostradumbass]

They are the main victim of serial killers and are raped more often.

It's about whether you want to improve the situation, which often time is accompanied by an "ideal" but admittedly unrealistic goal (zero rape, zero murder etc) or whether you just want to argue that it's the women's own fault and accept the status quo.

If you include prison, they aren't raped more often, and serial killers? We have like 10,000 murders/year in this country and you're worried about serial killers?

Pro tip: nobody is guaranteed safe walking through a dark alley at night regardless of what you're wearing.

 

[tonni]

If you include prison, they aren't raped more often, and serial killers? We have like 10,000 murders/year in this country and you're worried about serial killers?

Pro tip: nobody is guaranteed safe walking through a dark alley at night regardless of what you're wearing.

Would you say a woman is more or less safe walking at night than a man, regardless of what she's wearing?