Danaher's leglock system

[Ckaa]

There has been a lot of discussions on the danaher leglock approach (by Cummings and Tonon).

Do we have any resources on this? Apart from the Cummings Budovideos interview?

 

[jawlock]

I'm interested in this as well

 

[Ckaa]

In this video we clearly see Tonon using the "crunch" finish on the inside heelhook by going on his shoulder instead of ripping the heel to his left side.

 

[Gambledub]

I believe Tonon mentioned on either the Joe Rogan podcast or Eddie Bravo radio (maybe both?) that Palhares was a big influence. They tend to use the saddle and double outside Ashi a lot more though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In this video we clearly see Tonon using the "crunch" finish on the inside heelhook by going on his shoulder instead of ripping the heel to his left side.

I really like that finish for two reasons:

1. Safer. Much less likely to destroy someone's knee.

2. More effective in terms of positional control. If you can lock it up and finish with the crunch you don't get into these rolling scrambles trying to finish.

Like most subs, heel hooks are more effective and safer when you attack them from a position of strong control.

 

[the heed]

I believe Tonon mentioned on either the Joe Rogan podcast or Eddie Bravo radio (maybe both?) that Palhares was a big influence. They tend to use the saddle and double outside Ashi a lot more though.

It was on Joe HOgan's Podcast with Eddie.

He also said he will never train with Paul Harris because he is known to fuck up his training partners.

 

[Ckaa]

I really like that finish for two reasons:

1. Safer. Much less likely to destroy someone's knee.

2. More effective in terms of positional control. If you can lock it up and finish with the crunch you don't get into these rolling scrambles trying to finish.

Like most subs, heel hooks are more effective and safer when you attack them from a position of strong control.

I like it too. I'm believer in the positional hierarchy and I totally think it applies to leglocks too.

The problem is that we don't have so much information about the leglocks systems. I like the bodycomb positionnal hierarchy on the ashi garami variations but what are doing the danaher students seems more versatile and I'm sure they have a great system and approach.

I am a bit fed up with "instructionals" teaching 1 kneebar or 1 toehold but no system and counter system. I like the delgado or bodycomb approach as they are really "jiu-jitsu" minded, I would love to know more about what Danaher uses and whe he makes his students work.

I have played with the double outside ashi, it's pretty good but I'm always worried about leg drags. It works better if you have the leg extended before going to the sub.

I fear this situation (at the start of the match):


Of course Eddie retained his guard but he was pretty closed to get passed...

 

[Drew Foster]

In this video we clearly see Tonon using the "crunch" finish on the inside heelhook by going on his shoulder instead of ripping the heel to his left side.

See, I've had a harder time doing the crunch finish on the inside heel hook I've been able to get it on the outside heel hook, no problem. here's another video of Cummings doing it on the inside heel hook. Instagram won't embed, sorry.

https://instagram.com/p/yU_qyqkG2k/

 

[Uchi Mata]

See, I've had a harder time doing the crunch finish on the inside heel hook I've been able to get it on the outside heel hook, no problem. here's another video of Cummings doing it on the inside heel hook. Instagram won't embed, sorry.

https://instagram.com/p/yU_qyqkG2k/

It's definitely harder on the inside just because the knee has more flexion that direction even with the hips pinned in place. For me it usually does still require some twist to the outside, but frankly most people tap once I execute the crunch before I even start rotating. From a training standpoint it's a huge benefit because you actually get some warning before your knee gets blown.

 

[Zankou]

In this video we clearly see Tonon using the "crunch" finish on the inside heelhook by going on his shoulder instead of ripping the heel to his left side.

Dean Lister laying down the TRUTH here. People should be beaten until they see the light about how to correctly execute the heelhook.

[YT]IoJUd_QF8yo[/YT]

 

[metallifan3091]

I have basically nothing to add to this thread, except that I'd LOVE to see an instructional on leg locks from either Garry Tonon, Eddie Cummings, or (long shot, I know) John Danaher himself. Their system is quite different from the things I've learned from R. Bodycomb's sets and in class, and the analytic part of my brain is really interested in breaking it down to compare it to the high-side reaping system that Reilly prefers.

 

[Ckaa]

Yeah, Bodycomb stuff is pretty good but I like what I think I understand from the "danaher" system and I have the feeling it merges well with a "marcelo" type game. Eddie Cummings reminds me a kind of Marcelo Garcia heelhooker.

I have to say I rather Eddie's game than Gary's. Their leglock system is quite similar but Eddie's global guard game is more interesting for me. Gary has more a 10th planet style.

I would like to understand the global system: when they go to that position or this other one. An expended "eddie's budo interview" video in fact

 

[Drew Foster]

Yeah, Bodycomb stuff is pretty good but I like what I think I understand from the "danaher" system and I have the feeling it merges well with a "marcelo" type game. Eddie Cummings reminds me a kind of Marcelo Garcia heelhooker.

I have to say I rather Eddie's game than Gary's. Their leglock system is quite similar but Eddie's global guard game is more interesting for me. Gary has more a 10th planet style.

I would like to understand the global system: when they go to that position or this other one. An expended "eddie's budo interview" video in fact

Could you explain the Tonon 10th Planet style to me a bit more? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious to know more.

I always thought Tonon reminded me more of Bill Cooper than anyone else. I thought it was very evident in the match they had in 2014. They mirrored a lot of each others' half guard sweeps, back takes, front headlock attacks, and foot locks. They play some different specific techniques, but that was the main difference at the time. Say if you picked a foot, arm, and neck attack. Cooper may do more toe holds/armbars/darces, while Tonon might do do more heel hooks/guillotines/kimuras. But overall their presence on the mat looked similar to me.

They both are always going for the finish and don't seem to care at all about points. They also both have a lot of unconventional movements and have an athletic style. They both have gone into IBJJF events and done very well or lost the very first match.

I really wish more people had known about their match last year, because it was really cool and I'd love to see them rematch sometime.

 

[dokomoy]

I have basically nothing to add to this thread, except that I'd LOVE to see an instructional on leg locks from either Garry Tonon, Eddie Cummings, or (long shot, I know) John Danaher himself. Their system is quite different from the things I've learned from R. Bodycomb's sets and in class, and the analytic part of my brain is really interested in breaking it down to compare it to the high-side reaping system that Reilly prefers.

I think Eddie is going to do a dvd set with Digitsu(he came on here and had a comment like "is anyone interested in a dvd on Eddie's leg lock game" or something and I kind of interpreted it as building hype for a project they're already planning on doing).

I'd also like to see a dvd set from Danaher. Given how highly people praise his jiu jitsu and his teaching ability it would be really sweet if Digitsu/Ground Fighter(the guys who made Ryan's dvds)/Budo Video's did a set with him.

 

[Steve08]

I have very little experience with heel hooks and such (I only know how to finish footlocks, kneebars right now), but I've heard that Danaher really likes the ashi garami control.

What I CAN tell you is that my striking coach Brendan Dorman is a Renzo purple (much better than that nogi) who rolls with legit guys there whenever he is in New York, and he described Danaher's system as "deep", not revolutionary or anything like that.

But I think the fact that Danaher has a leglock system at all is a great step in the right direction, and will do a lot to banish the unnecessary stigmatization of leg attacks in BJJ.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Could you explain the Tonon 10th Planet style to me a bit more? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious to know more.

I always thought Tonon reminded me more of Bill Cooper than anyone else. I thought it was very evident in the match they had in 2014. They mirrored a lot of each others' half guard sweeps, back takes, front headlock attacks, and foot locks. They play some different specific techniques, but that was the main difference at the time. Say if you picked a foot, arm, and neck attack. Cooper may do more toe holds/armbars/darces, while Tonon might do do more heel hooks/guillotines/kimuras. But overall their presence on the mat looked similar to me.

They both are always going for the finish and don't seem to care at all about points. They also both have a lot of unconventional movements and have an athletic style. They both have gone into IBJJF events and done very well or lost the very first match.

I really wish more people had known about their match last year, because it was really cool and I'd love to see them rematch sometime.

Lockdow and truck basically Gary goes for those moves all the time

 

[Gambledub]

Some clips you guys might like...

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[Ckaa]

Could you explain the Tonon 10th Planet style to me a bit more? I'm not disagreeing, but I'm curious to know more.

I always thought Tonon reminded me more of Bill Cooper than anyone else. I thought it was very evident in the match they had in 2014. They mirrored a lot of each others' half guard sweeps, back takes, front headlock attacks, and foot locks. They play some different specific techniques, but that was the main difference at the time. Say if you picked a foot, arm, and neck attack. Cooper may do more toe holds/armbars/darces, while Tonon might do do more heel hooks/guillotines/kimuras. But overall their presence on the mat looked similar to me.

They both are always going for the finish and don't seem to care at all about points. They also both have a lot of unconventional movements and have an athletic style. They both have gone into IBJJF events and done very well or lost the very first match.

I really wish more people had known about their match last year, because it was really cool and I'd love to see them rematch sometime.

Yes I was thinking about the half guard game.

Than jus for the clips gambledubs, it shows a lot of things. I was rewatching lister's katch system and we have some common elements in his approach and theirs.

I hop the eddie's DVD isn't just a rumor. I don't think he is the best leglocker at the moment (palhares and lister are more proven) but I find his style really really interesting and I just want to see him on the biggest stage (adcc) to show all his potential. He seems to have the most complete and systemic style and his leglock game is totally melted in his global game

 

[Ckaa]

Some ideas with danaher's system:

 

[Uchi Mata]

Not going to quote all of Gamble's post, but that deep half to opposite side reaping leg lock attack Tonon does is nasty. I got to work on that.