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Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Vidar79, Oct 28, 2008.
Great thread keep it up!!
its crazy how much trouble you can have getting stuff most people dont even think about before or after a fight happens.......very interesting thread
Yesterday the small and unappreciated World of cutmen in the fight business lost one of it's true wizards in Joe Souza, who passed away at 77 years of age due to cancer.
Longtime cutman Joe Souza dies at 77 from prostate cancer - ESPN
Here is a good article looking into the mind of this obscure type of person:
Mischa Merz: Writing - The cut man
Thought I would give this thread a bump. As nurse and someone who trains I am interested in working the corner. Great stories guys!
Certainly interesting to hear the conversations. They only further my stance that formal training in the industry is best for the fighters and the sport. Listening to one guy's advice who bases it on nothing proven in science, underhanded attempts to get prescribed meds, it all blurs the best practice for the sake of the competitors.
There is a technique that can be appropriate for each situation, and Enswell use is no different. Using pressure improperly can create just as much of a disservice as shearing across tissue. Yet the opposite if done properly can be more effective at times if you know why and do it right.
Much like a thread on trying to make a bomb in your garage, it's dangerous to do things you aren't trained to do, and it weakens the profession. Not everyone is meant to do something just because it looks fun. Many fighters have proven that to be true over and over.
If you're serious, gain medical knowledge and formal training, proper experience after that, and learn only from those who have both. Anything less is playing with fire...
Word of advice (and I'm aware of who you are complete cutman, with all due respect), it might be a good idea to inquire as to who people are when they appear anonymous due to usernames on an internet forum. There have been biochemists posting in different threads here and having people tell them they don't know what they're talking about in-terms of science.
It's a much better approach than making what could be taken as a condescending introductory post. I find, but hey that's just me.
In other news, I neglected to post this in here but this past year the thankless and oft-blamed World of old school Boxing cutmen lost one of our best:
Famed Boxing Cutman Joe Souza Passes Away at Age 77
Words from Joe himself:
Mischa Merz: Writing - The cut man
I appreciate the respect, though I've done nothing to earn it. With anonymous posts, it's not exactly a setting to get to know people, I doubt that is the purpose of the thread. If someone takes any feedback as condescending, they have misread it and I hope would confirm with me cause I hardly directed any thoughts in such a manner.
If biochemists are talking about biochemistry, they are obviously the authority. You haven't seen me start any molecular discussions and such a topic is of no interest to me so I let them lead the way with those conversations. My responses have been about enswell use, hand taping (not wraps, those are illegal though commonly named improperly), and other things you saw listed. If something empirically is not correct, I hope we would all want the statement directly addressed. Regardless of the identity of the person. If we aren't wanting to grow, we likely won't improve. I'm sure that's why the biochemist spoke up about his piece of the puzzle, and I know I thank him (or her) for it rather than ask him to get to know the person before they reply.
Plenty of posts have followed since then that could be given clarification but it seems this thread wasn't about the positive intent I thought it was. Seems that was a healthy approach to maintain, but that's just me. Sorry to interrupt the thread, best of success to everyone in the future.
I'm actually of the opinion that there should be a standard among cutmen, and that education would greatly improve the quality of persons wishing to be involved. I think that a certain level of medical training would be beneficial for aspiring cutmen as well.
However, even if standards were adopted, there would still be division among the methods and people would use cherry pick their scientific data or appeal to experience to justify their methods. Just like model shifts in science, new techniques and technologies will challenge old methods while traditionalists will stand by their assertions with an appeal to experience and their older models of information.
Way late in getting involved but I really hope this thread picks back up
Just saw this thread kicking around. I'm a cutman. I've worked some pretty big MMA shows (televised on cable, etc..), and would be happy to contribute and answer any questions.
I've been doing it for about 7 years now, and would still be making a pretty good living if that's all I did. I choose to keep my day job on a part time basis for the insurance, and because I work in an operating room, which is convenient for a lot of things. My job is very, VERY good about letting me gallivant off and work shows whenever I want.
As to a few things that have been asked already-
I use epi 1:1000 and surgicel. 99.9999% of the time it's just epi. Surgicel I only use on gaping ax wound type stuff. It's legal in most states, but not all, so you have to check on that too. In many, many conversations with surgeons in the course of my work I've become convinced that thrombin is not any more useful than epi, so I don't even carry it.
I think Avitene is messy, and I don't use it.
I carry 3 end swells. One is flat, 2 are rounded. I really only need 2, but I've had stuff stolen, or people ask to borrow one, hence the 3rd.
The biggest mistake I see amateur cutmen making is trying to push out swelling. If you press and smash on an area that's swelling, you create more damage in the underlying structures and make it worse.
I keep my epi swabs in a cut for about 15 seconds,then I replace it with a new one for as many times as I can do that (you can't really get more than 3 or so). I always hold the swab in the cut with my end swell so that I'm applying cold and chemical simultaneously.
I use vaseline that's in a tube as opposed to the tubs. I have 2. One at room temp, and one I keep iced for the fights. The iced one is what I use to plug the cuts. It's easier to form and keeps cold going on the cut for a little while longer.
And as far as getting started, I always tell people to be willing to work for free. Contact an amateur promoter and say "If you don't have a cutman, I'm trying to learn, I would be willing to work your show for free if you'll have me". For the first 5 years or so that I was doing this I lost money on it. Between supplies, travel, etc...I ended up in the red every year. But I made friends, lots of them, and now I work every weekend, my travel is paid for and I get sponsor money. You just have to keep at it, just work. Be willing to work free, be willing to screw up, be honest and work wherever you can.
I've coached at a few tourneys now but there's head gear so I hadn't really need to worry about cuts too much. Now I'm coaching fighters for Battlefield and other than an endswell I don't have much experience.
I have a couple questions about epi 1:1000 -
Is there any concerns about allergies or something going wrong while using it? Has anyone ever reacted negatively to it?
Do you need to be licensed to use it?
I found THIS but it has to due with inadvertent injections.
Anyone have any experince with Dermabond?
From my understanding it's more if your fighter gets cut in training before a fight, as opposed to during the fight itself.
Epi is adrenaline, and naturally occuring with your body. It's actually a drug you could give someone if they're having an allergic reaction to something else (think epi pen). Unless you're injecting it (and a fair amount) there's no need to worry about adverse reaction.
Licensed to use it, not really.. Some states having licensing for being a cutman, which then allows you to purchase epi from a pharmacy (your license can act as prescription in some states), but it's not a controlled substance. Again, if you went around using it all crazy and injecting it, that would be a different mess. Using it topically like we do is no issue. Same goes with thrombin, avitene, and surgicel.
I keep dermabond around. It's useful on cuts after fights, and at least 10 days before a fight. Dermabond can be used if it's not a wide gaping cut. By that I mean you're not looking at muscle through the cut (just some fat) and the skin edges come together easily. about 10 days before a fight you can use it and be fine, or any time after a fight. I used it once about 8 days before a fight and it wasn't quite healed all the way. Dermabond is nice because you can shower with it, and train pretty normally without the fear of busting or tearing out a stitch.
Just be careful with people wanting it for every little boo boo. Way more things can be butterflied closed than people think, but medicine has a tendency to swing at flies with a sledgehammer. It's too expensive to be wasting when a butterfly or steri strips and mastisol would have worked just fine.
I have two kits nowadays for training supplies. One Amateur and one Pro. The Pro one has A LOT more shit in it, but it's still neat and compact. I have one of Title's bags that has a compartment for ice at the bottom, so it keeps everything in it cooled.
The reason I did this was to differentiate cornering for Amateurs and Pro shows. I've done quite a few Amateur shows now myself (Boxing), and was recently involved in a Pro show where you'd be shocked at how ill-prepared some trainers were. One kid didn't even bring a cup or a mouthpiece, and his trainer had the degradation of having to go into the opponent's dressing room (more than one fighter to a dressing room) and ask if anyone had a cup the kid could borrow. Other trainers had NO cut supplies, no vaseline, no scissors, NOTHING.
But, at the same time when I do Amateur shows, and I have two coming up within the next two weeks, I don't want to haul a bunch of shit I don't need there. Nor to possibly lose something important. So I just have two kits now.
Agreed with everything above. Hell, I even carry razors in one bag because half the competitors showed up to Golden Gloves one year sporting beards. I also have contact cases and solution, as that seems to come up a lot too.
Ja! That shit happens all the time here. Guys show up to weigh-ins with full beards and have to shave on the spot. I've not had the contact lens issue come up, but that's very smart nonetheless.
You sound like a very good hired-gun. You could get tons of work around Vegas. The card I mentioned where a few guys were ill-prepared was actually a televised ESPN 2 card. So the guys who NEEDED the work would have paid well for it.
Man, I hope you don't mind but I'd like to pick your brain a bit more:
I have a long, rectangular, rounded one, but I have yet to use it. I was also looking at getting a smaller, flat circular one as well. I'd imagine the smaller ones are better better for direct pressure in smaller areas (like under the eye) while the longer, rounded ones could be used for above the eye. This is just a guess though and I'd love to hear your opinion on which to use for different scenarios.
A more general question for everyone - would it be worth it to get a higher level first aid certification - like Industrial First Aid? Not just for the knowledge, but for insurance purposes and getting a foot in the door with promoters, too.
Thanks to Tripnastic and KK for the tips and sharing their knowledge. Much appreciated.
I know this is a really old post but it'd be great if you could tell us exactly what you did to stop the nose bleed and eye swelling. Well, more the nose bleed, as I can already guess about the latter.
I like to use the rectangular curved ones for larger areas, above or below the eye, depending on how large the mouse is getting. I often use two rectangular ones for eyes that are really starting to swell. One goes with firm (but not crushing, and no rubbing) pressure on the swelling, and then I hold the other one on the temple area. My totally unproven and completely made up on my own theory is that I'm going to reduce the direct swelling, and hopefully reduce some of the feeder flow to that area from it's blood supply.
What I really, really like my flat circular one for is holding my swabs in cuts. I like to hold the swabs in there with that one so that I'm getting cold, pressure and my hemostatic agent going all at the same time, but it's not so large that I lose track of my swab under it and find out it wasn't actually in the wound like I would like.
I think if you want to go for some schooling I would do an EMT-B course at a community college. They're typically only one semester. You learn a fair amount of basic trauma, good A&P for this, and the clinicals can help you practice keeping calm and organized.