COTTO: Made For Muay Thai

AndyMaBobs

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New article, figured I'd do something good that I'm sure will send ARIZE into a deep depression. I figured it'd be a fun one for @Sano, @Sinister and @j123 at the very least. The article was mainly an excuse to breakdown how Cotto fights, but also how it's applicable to any other striking sport. The website is Muay Thai Guy so I link it mostly to MT, but it fits kickboxing and MMA too.

The article covers:
The basics of Cotto's game
Cotto's specific punch selection
How Cotto denys the clinch

Here's an excerpt:
________________

Miguel Ángel Cotto is a boxer’s boxer. He wins fights with an old-school approach, operating in grey areas that are typically forgotten by most modern boxers. First, let’s have a look at the basics of Miguel Cotto’s style that seem tailor-made for Muay Thai.

First is Cotto’s high guard. If you’ve been in the gym long enough, you’ve probably heard someone tell you to keep your hands up. While it’s true that having your hands up aids your defense, the main reason you want your hands by your head is to maximize your offence. While low hands can come from interesting blind angles, having your hands low in Muay Thai can lead to your arms getting kicked and deadened. Adopting Miguel’s high guard will keep your arms safe.

cotto_close_range_jab.gif

Cotto nails Margarito with several jabs, all out of his high guard.

The second is his use of head movement. Head movement in Muay Thai is commonly misunderstood. It’s often said that head movement in Muay Thai will cause you to duck into knee strikes. This is certainly a possibility, but there is no knee strike in the world that can hit you as quickly as an uppercut from the same angle. Head movement is still a valuable skill in Muay Thai and most of the top Thais from Saenchai to Sangmanee use it.

Miguel Cotto rarely bends at the waist when evading punches, and tends to keep his head movement relegated to subtle slip straight punches, and saving small weaves or when he anticipates a hook.

The final basic trait of Cotto is that he tends to stand half-crouched, bringing his center of gravity lower to the ground and allowing him to sit down on his punches far easier than if he were standing straight-legged.

________________


Full Article Available here
 
I really liked this:

"Boxing is not the act of punching, but everything that happens in between the punches. It’s setups, counters, planning and footwork."

Very well put and something I think everyone interesting in boxing needs to understand. Took me long enough lol.

I think you're on to something about Cotto and translating some of the aspects of his game to MT. Subtle head movement, high guard, long ranged and stiff jab, aggressive clinching. It makes sense.
 
New article, figured I'd do something good that I'm sure will send ARIZE into a deep depression. I figured it'd be a fun one for @Sano, @Sinister and @j123 at the very least. The article was mainly an excuse to breakdown how Cotto fights, but also how it's applicable to any other striking sport. The website is Muay Thai Guy so I link it mostly to MT, but it fits kickboxing and MMA too.

The article covers:
The basics of Cotto's game
Cotto's specific punch selection
How Cotto denys the clinch

Here's an excerpt:
________________

Miguel Ángel Cotto is a boxer’s boxer. He wins fights with an old-school approach, operating in grey areas that are typically forgotten by most modern boxers. First, let’s have a look at the basics of Miguel Cotto’s style that seem tailor-made for Muay Thai.

First is Cotto’s high guard. If you’ve been in the gym long enough, you’ve probably heard someone tell you to keep your hands up. While it’s true that having your hands up aids your defense, the main reason you want your hands by your head is to maximize your offence. While low hands can come from interesting blind angles, having your hands low in Muay Thai can lead to your arms getting kicked and deadened. Adopting Miguel’s high guard will keep your arms safe.

cotto_close_range_jab.gif

Cotto nails Margarito with several jabs, all out of his high guard.

The second is his use of head movement. Head movement in Muay Thai is commonly misunderstood. It’s often said that head movement in Muay Thai will cause you to duck into knee strikes. This is certainly a possibility, but there is no knee strike in the world that can hit you as quickly as an uppercut from the same angle. Head movement is still a valuable skill in Muay Thai and most of the top Thais from Saenchai to Sangmanee use it.

Miguel Cotto rarely bends at the waist when evading punches, and tends to keep his head movement relegated to subtle slip straight punches, and saving small weaves or when he anticipates a hook.

The final basic trait of Cotto is that he tends to stand half-crouched, bringing his center of gravity lower to the ground and allowing him to sit down on his punches far easier than if he were standing straight-legged.

________________


Full Article Available here
Underhooks are actually becoming a trend now in MT clinching. Before it was kinda the last resort thing to do, but its gaining traction these days.

Head movement is fine, bobbing and weaving ALL the time is whats the problem. do the same move more than twice in a row, and any idiot will find a way to counter or make you walk into something. Variety is key.

Personally with me, my head comes off the line when I punch.
1) its natural to do that.
2) much easier to get full weight shift with it coming off
3) Its how I can land against taller opponents (which is my matchup almost all the time). Shit, if my head stayed on the line and I trade with someone 3+ inches taller than me, I'd never land and just eat fists like cereal

Recently I;ve been toying with the idea of "dashing" type lateral movement in my punches, its not a very popular thing to do or see, but I find the weight I can get behind them is vicious. Crosses feel like overhands, hooks feel like I have a sledge hammer. Its pretty reliant on timing though, since it is a bit slower than your standard stationary strike.
Basically something like 1,2,3,2. On the hook I'd dash laterally to my right giving my hook much more dig (off the line), then coming back with the cross, I kinda dash forward at a 45 angle. At times the cross gets jammed, but its like an ugly hockey punch.

I really liked this:

"Boxing is not the act of punching, but everything that happens in between the punches. It’s setups, counters, planning and footwork."

Very well put and something I think everyone interesting in boxing needs to understand. Took me long enough lol.

I think you're on to something about Cotto and translating some of the aspects of his game to MT. Subtle head movement, high guard, long ranged and stiff jab, aggressive clinching. It makes sense.
There is so much this. Lots of gyms say they do boxing and how they're more ahead compared to pure MT gyms, but really when you see the difference between boxers and nak muays you can tell, the entire thing is different. The system, the style they do with punches. I thought I was fast, but when I see vids and spar against boxers that wander in for MMA, its really eye opening how slow we all are.
 
@AndyMaBobs

Glad to fuel your motivation to write something. My paypal is...
Honestly, articles from people like you are a breeze of fresh air with whats going on those days in this forum...
I haven't read it yet, and its probably a bunch of nonsense about punches and head movement for MT, but i will get to it soon, and respond properly why it's a bunch of horsecrap...
 
Love you ARIZE

Underhooks are actually becoming a trend now in MT clinching. Before it was kinda the last resort thing to do, but its gaining traction these days.

I choose to believe that I popularised underhooks for Muay Thai. I like going to them a lot. I'll be talking about them when my clinch piece gets posted (yes @Superhet it is actually finished now)
 
I really liked this:

"Boxing is not the act of punching, but everything that happens in between the punches. It’s setups, counters, planning and footwork."

Yep I like that quote too. It is the same for all combat sports, and martial arts. Each code of wrestling with its own set of rules, BJJ, alll the striking arts etc, etc have their own set of things that happen in between.

When you do each, you get good at the setups, counters, footwork etc etc, that are relevant under those particular rulesets.
 
Love you ARIZE



I choose to believe that I popularised underhooks for Muay Thai. I like going to them a lot. I'll be talking about them when my clinch piece gets posted (yes @Superhet it is actually finished now)
Naw, the pros are making waves with it now.

Yep I like that quote too. It is the same for all combat sports, and martial arts. Each code of wrestling with its own set of rules, BJJ, alll the striking arts etc, etc have their own set of things that happen in between.

When you do each, you get good at the setups, counters, footwork etc etc, that are relevant under those particular rulesets.
So much this, being restricted, you're forced to get creative
 
@AndyMaBobs

Well you probably know where I disagree, like the paragraph on body punches etc...
But my main objection would be:
For me, it's not an article about what a Thai Boxer should do, by taking examples from boxing... but the exact opposite... What a boxer could do, by taking techniques from MT.

-High guard is the basic defense and a necessity in MT... Boxers could use it too. Example: Cotto.
-Denying the Clinch. Who has a better clinch game than the Thais? Boxers could use it too, with some small adaptation: Example: Cotto

Do you really thing a Thai could learn anything from Cotto on the high guard? and not from any other fellow Thai? A boxer could learn from Cotto, or a Boxer could learn from MT... But i don't think a Nak Muay could learn anything new from a boxer on the high guard...


So as you see, and as I've been saying from the beginning... Nak Muays have nothing to learn/change... We are already perfect. On the other hand, boxers could learn a lot from us... Like Cotto did...
So even the title of your article is wrong. It should be:
MUAY THAI: MADE FOR COTTO... and any other boxer... or any kind of fighter really...

WHO'S DEPRESSED NOW, FOOL?
 
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@AndyMaBobs

Well you probably know where I disagree, like the paragraph on body punches etc...
But my main objection would be:
For me, it's not an article about what a Thai Boxer should do, by taking examples from boxing... but the exact opposite... What a boxer could do, by taking techniques from MT.

-High guard is the basic defense and a necessity in MT... Boxers could use it too. Example: Cotto.
-Denying the Clinch. Who has a better clinch game than the Thais? Boxers could use it too, with some small adaptation: Example: Cotto

Do you really thing a Thai could learn anything from Cotto on the high guard? and not from any other fellow Thai? A boxer could learn from Cotto, or a Boxer could learn from MT... But i don't think a Nak Muay could learn anything new from a boxer on the high guard...


So as you see, and as I've been saying from the beginning... Nak Muays have nothing to learn/change... We are already perfect. On the other hand, boxers could learn a lot from us... Like Coto did...
So even the title of your article is wrong. It should be:
MUAY THAI: MADE FOR COTTO... and any other boxer... or any kind of fighter really...

WHO'S DEPRESSED NOW, FOOL?

I don't completely disagree, although it's worth noting that everything Cotto does is stuff that was common place in boxing - it's only in more recent years that boxers have gotten worse at the inside game - so it would less be taking from muay thai and more reimplementing stuff that boxers used to do.

As for whether or not a nak muay can learn something new from a boxer about the high guard - I disagree, partly because boxers are better at using the high guard for defence than nam muay are generally, as it's a lot of what they do - the other part I disagree with is more because its to do with who the article is aimed at - notably farang.

Obviously i don't need to tell pakorn to look at Cotto's boxing style, but farang are notably more influenced by MMA and often will try to Conor McGregor it.

TL;DR the honkeys should not confuse themselves for Thais :p coming from a proud honkey
 
Oh man...It's on...It's so on....

the other part I disagree with is more because its to do with who the article is aimed at - notably farang.

I don't care if it's a Thai Lumpinee vet champ, a kid from France, or any other dude from any shithole... We talking about guys and girls who train real MT... not that fake KB with knees, not MT for MMA, but real pure simple MT.
If not, then ok, don't take in consideration any of my critics.

But:

I disagree, partly because boxers are better at using the high guard for defence than nam muay are generally, as it's a lot of what they do

High guard is the basic and first defense you learn in MT. It's the defense you'll probably use your entire career. 90% of Nak Muays use it (yes I've asked them all). Some may use long guard, Dracula guard... But everyone started with the basic high guard. You learn how to defend against kicks, elbows, fancy stuffs like punches. You learn how to use it for clinching. And you learn how to use it for your attacks (elbows etc)...
How the fak can a boxer be better at it? He is good at using it for boxing, but there is no way that the most experienced boxer using it (Cotto for example), is having a better High Guard for MT than a Nak Muay of any decent level...

What could a beginner in MT learn from Cotto, that he wont learn from his trainer, or watching any other MT fighter? Just because the boxer is better at defending against more punches? THERE ARE NO PUNCHES IN MT...
But seriously the high guard you learn in MT is enough to deal against punches, but most importantly, it allows you to deal against all the other stuffs you have in MT, that boxers don't have to deal with...

Same goes for the clinch... You cannot expect a boxer to have something to teach to a MT fighter about clinching.
If you had wrote about the need to learn more techniques for clinching, like under-hooks, OK. But not from boxers... Lot's of MT fighters use them. It's something you can learn from a good Kru. So why not learning from them, instead of Boxing?

Obviously i don't need to tell pakorn to look at Cotto's boxing style, but farang are notably more influenced by MMA and often will try to Conor McGregor it.

Then they are not doing MT... fak them...fak them all.

Your article can be useful to KBers, or that thing they call MT for MMA, or even other boxers... But i dont think it's useful for Muay Thai...
Or your article could be on how Cotto's game has techniques used in MT...


And now that i won in such a grand manner, i leave while loud music is playing, explosions are been exploded, and girls in bikinis are dancing along my path to the sunset...
 
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So as you see, and as I've been saying from the beginning... Nak Muays have nothing to learn/change... We are already perfect.
Double legs, wrasslin', jhuuu jeee sue, GnP, chi blasts
 
It might be what you learn - but if we're being honest a LOT of muay thai fighters keep a low guard... in fact i'd even say most of them.

Saenchai, Pakorn, Sangmanee, Muangthai, Sittichai, Nontakit, Thepnimit, I could go on and on, sure they're not full on hands low, but none of them keep a high guard anywhere near as tight as Cotto, and if there's one thing you can say about him, it's that he's defensively responsible at all times. If he throws a punch, his opposite hand will be guarding his face.

That's something every one should learn to do ;)
 
It might be what you learn - but if we're being honest a LOT of muay thai fighters keep a low guard... in fact i'd even say most of them.

Saenchai, Pakorn, Sangmanee, Muangthai, Sittichai, Nontakit, Thepnimit, I could go on and on, sure they're not full on hands low, but none of them keep a high guard anywhere near as tight as Cotto, and if there's one thing you can say about him, it's that he's defensively responsible at all times. If he throws a punch, his opposite hand will be guarding his face.

That's something every one should learn to do ;)
All jokes aside, what they could learn is retaliating with hands and flow into combos.

Its good they retaliate, thats a basic to any combat sport, but its usually a leg kick or knee. At least with hands you can be tight, there's always the risk with legs that you;ll get sloppy and eat hands like cereal.

Dutch combos are actually making waves in MT right now, and in Thailand at hat
 
High guard is the basic and first defense you learn in MT. It's the defense you'll probably use your entire career. 90% of Nak Muays use it (yes I've asked them all). Some may use long guard, Dracula guard... But everyone started with the basic high guard. You learn how to defend against kicks, elbows, fancy stuffs like punches. You learn how to use it for clinching. And you learn how to use it for your attacks (elbows etc)...

How the fak can a boxer be better at it? He is good at using it for boxing, but there is no way that the most experienced boxer using it (Cotto for example), is having a better High Guard for MT than a Nak Muay of any decent level...

What could a beginner in MT learn from Cotto, that he wont learn from his trainer, or watching any other MT fighter? Just because the boxer is better at defending against more punches? THERE ARE NO PUNCHES IN MT...
But seriously the high guard you learn in MT is enough to deal against punches, but most importantly, it allows you to deal against all the other stuffs you have in MT, that boxers don't have to deal with...

And that there is the key point. The very tight high guard used in boxing works well in boxing for dealing with punches. In MT there's also kicks, knees, and elbows to deal with and this changes many things. Having the arms tight & close to the head leaves no room for absorbing kicks, an opponent could simply round kick the arms right into your face and hurt you anyway or even break the arm like Singdam did to a Chinese opponent.

Not to mention the body is left open for kicks & knees, and guess what scores highest in MT? Oh. Yeah. That's a slight problem isn't it? Thus the high guard needs to be adapted for use in MT, the arms are further from the head to give room for blocking & absorbing kicks and a bit lower so they can work together with leg checks to defend kicks to the body.

It might be what you learn - but if we're being honest a LOT of muay thai fighters keep a low guard... in fact i'd even say most of them.

And a lot of Nak Muay use a high guard, including a number of modern era greats.

For example, Singdam is in high guard most of the time and Petchboonchu uses high guard all the time and keeps it pretty tight.


Nong-O goes between several stances & guards but he's in high guard a fair bit and Sagetdao is usually high & tight.


Or we can watch a young Namsaknoi take on Lamnammoon Sor Sumalee, both of them are in high guard.
 
And that there is the key point. The very tight high guard used in boxing works well in boxing for dealing with punches. In MT there's also kicks, knees, and elbows to deal with and this changes many things. Having the arms tight & close to the head leaves no room for absorbing kicks, an opponent could simply round kick the arms right into your face and hurt you anyway or even break the arm like Singdam did to a Chinese opponent.

Not to mention the body is left open for kicks & knees, and guess what scores highest in MT? Oh. Yeah. That's a slight problem isn't it? Thus the high guard needs to be adapted for use in MT, the arms are further from the head to give room for blocking & absorbing kicks and a bit lower so they can work together with leg checks to defend kicks to the body.



And a lot of Nak Muay use a high guard, including a number of modern era greats.

For example, Singdam is in high guard most of the time and Petchboonchu uses high guard all the time and keeps it pretty tight.


Nong-O goes between several stances & guards but he's in high guard a fair bit and Sagetdao is usually high & tight.


Or we can watch a young Namsaknoi take on Lamnammoon Sor Sumalee, both of them are in high guard.


Yup I agree, what I think they generally need to work on is keeping their defence tight as they punch, I'm not necessarily a proponent of the guard always being high - although I wouldn't recommend taking a kick on the arm from the lower guard either, in muay thai you're supposed to check body kicks with the legs. I do think that keeping one half of your guard tight on the punch is something that should be encouraged and is definitely something boxers do better.
 
Double legs, wrasslin', jhuuu jeee sue, GnP, chi blasts

Seriously man? Chi blasts? Really?
Everybody knows that MT has one of the best chi blast... just look at Sagat's one in street fighter...

@AndyMaBobs

Aerius completed what I was trying to say (and with examples). Just add the teep against a boxer's high guard, and he will have to adapt it... Now imagine with kicks, knees, elbows and clinch entries...

I do think that keeping one half of your guard tight on the punch is something that should be encouraged and is definitely something boxers do better.

Off course they do it better since THERE ARE NO PUNCHES IN MT...
No seriously, the guy that punches in MT has to worry about been kicked, kneed, elbowed, clinched and punched... The boxer that punches has "only" to worry about been punched back. Off course his high guard can and will be tighter, better... But it's not the same sport...
Been countered by a punch while you punch in MT, is not your first/biggest danger, so obviously your high guard will not be centered around it...

Again, everyone should try to have a better technique, but why try to take something from another sport, that is not completely applicable in yours, instead of trying to find the best ones in your own sport. Take MT examples to better your MT...

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to shit on your article, because you have good knowledge to share... But you have a tendency, like many others in here, to look down on basic MT, and wanting to change it. Specially by adding boxing stuffs...

There is a reason why MT is the way it is... Off course there is evolution, and off course there are exceptions... But basics are basics for a reason...

LEAVE MT ALONE
 
Seriously man? Chi blasts? Really?
Everybody knows that MT has one of the best chi blast... just look at Sagat's one in street fighter...

@AndyMaBobs

Aerius completed what I was trying to say (and with examples). Just add the teep against a boxer's high guard, and he will have to adapt it... Now imagine with kicks, knees, elbows and clinch entries...



Off course they do it better since THERE ARE NO PUNCHES IN MT...
No seriously, the guy that punches in MT has to worry about been kicked, kneed, elbowed, clinched and punched... The boxer that punches has "only" to worry about been punched back. Off course his high guard can and will be tighter, better... But it's not the same sport...
Been countered by a punch while you punch in MT, is not your first/biggest danger, so obviously your high guard will not be centered around it...

Again, everyone should try to have a better technique, but why try to take something from another sport, that is not completely applicable in yours, instead of trying to find the best ones in your own sport. Take MT examples to better your MT...

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to shit on your article, because you have good knowledge to share... But you have a tendency, like many others in here, to look down on basic MT, and wanting to change it. Specially by adding boxing stuffs...

There is a reason why MT is the way it is... Off course there is evolution, and off course there are exceptions... But basics are basics for a reason...

LEAVE MT ALONE

We have the weirdest troll/trollee dynamic.

A tight guard while throwing a punch will protect you from elbows, and kicks, and it's true that they will try to counter with a body kick, but when you're throwing a punch that's unavoidable anyway... but nah I wouldn't say I look down on pure muay thai, I'm pretty sure the first paragraph of my article says that the Thais are better technical boxers than the dutch - which is the polar opposite to a lot of posters here.
 
I will leave it at it (for now).Not much left for me to say. You made your points, I made mine.
We know each others global opinion anyway, just hope the discussion may bring food for thoughts to others...
 
Seriously man? Chi blasts? Really?
Everybody knows that MT has one of the best chi blast... just look at Sagat's one in street fighter...

Sagat doesn't shoot chi blasts, he shoots TRT blasts. He's lucky the fight with him and Ryu didn't have USADA involved
 
@AndyMaBobs

Well you probably know where I disagree, like the paragraph on body punches etc...
But my main objection would be:
For me, it's not an article about what a Thai Boxer should do, by taking examples from boxing... but the exact opposite... What a boxer could do, by taking techniques from MT.

-High guard is the basic defense and a necessity in MT... Boxers could use it too. Example: Cotto.
-Denying the Clinch. Who has a better clinch game than the Thais? Boxers could use it too, with some small adaptation: Example: Cotto

Do you really thing a Thai could learn anything from Cotto on the high guard? and not from any other fellow Thai? A boxer could learn from Cotto, or a Boxer could learn from MT... But i don't think a Nak Muay could learn anything new from a boxer on the high guard...


So as you see, and as I've been saying from the beginning... Nak Muays have nothing to learn/change... We are already perfect. On the other hand, boxers could learn a lot from us... Like Coto did...
So even the title of your article is wrong. It should be:
MUAY THAI: MADE FOR COTTO... and any other boxer... or any kind of fighter really...

WHO'S DEPRESSED NOW, FOOL?
just wondering what country you are from. Australia is where its at for thai boxing outside of Thailand. and not to rain on your parade but boxing has had a big impact on thai boxing. want to get jabbed in the face, guard like a thai boxer. a lot of thai boxers don't have great punch defense. they prefer to neutralise punches with kicks or clinching. why do you think most K1 fighters altered their guard to a more boxing style with the hands closer to the body and not so high.
 
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